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Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 6:00:57 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
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From: Idaho
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How come most shooting deaths have nothing to do with protecting ones family? Yet, there are those who want to make it easier to acquire guns. They say they have the right to bear arms to protect their families. Unfortunately, gun ownership often ends with one family member using a gun to kill another family member. Now this practice has even trickled down to children. Children learn guns kill, they learn if you get mad at someone you can use guns to kill to settle the dispute. This is a sad legacy we are teaching our children. I am sure this father taught his son all the safety precautions and to respect guns, a lot of good it did him.
Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. — It's a crime that police officers in a small eastern Arizona community can hardly fathom yet have to deal with: an 8-year-old charged in the fatal shootings of his father and another man.
"Who would think an 8-year-old kid could kill two adults?" St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said Friday.
The killings on Wednesday sent shock waves through St. Johns, a community of about 4,000 people. The boy had no disciplinary record at school, and there was no indication he had any problems at home, prosecutors said.
"It was such a tragedy," said the boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer. "You have two people dead; you have an 8-year-old in jail. It tugs at the heart strings. It's a shocker, no doubt about it."
On Friday, a judge determined there was probable cause to show that the boy fatally shot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos, with a .22-caliber rifle. The boy faces two counts of premeditated murder. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older.
Melnick said the boy didn't act on the "spur of the moment," though he didn't elaborate on what the motive might have been.
Full Story HERE
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 6:18:42 PM
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bravjim
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While this is a tragic story, and there are other tragic stories similar to this, you cannot blame gun laws because some kid decides to kill someone. This country has the second ammendment allowing all citizens to own guns. You want to blame someone, blame our forefathers. The fact that an 8 year old had access to a gun is a bigger concern than the fact that people are permitted under the constitution to own their own guns.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 7:11:40 PM
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gigigirrl
Posts: 83
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
How come most shooting deaths have nothing to do with protecting ones family?
Says who? Have you got some stats?
quote:
Yet, there are those who want to make it easier to acquire guns.
And there are those that try to to take gun rights away from those who want to be responsible about owning a gun.
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They say they have the right to bear arms to protect their families.
Yes,
The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
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Unfortunately, gun ownership often ends with one family member using a gun to kill another family member.
Again, some evidence, please.
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Now this practice has even trickled down to children.
This is a horrible circumstance. But do you take away rights to keep us safe. Remember they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. As old Ben F. said.
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Children learn guns kill, they learn if you get mad at someone you can use guns to kill to settle the dispute.
They learn that mostly from entertainment, media, television, movies, and video games. I think this is more of an arguement of what kind of games kids should play.
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This is a sad legacy we are teaching our children.
I agree the entertainment industry is eating at our kids and many parents stand by oblivious.
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I am sure this father taught his son all the safety precautions and to respect guns, a lot of good it did him.
Actually we don't know that he taught him all the safety precautions or to respect guns. To be quite frank it does not sound like the child had respect for guns. But we really know nothing about this event. The police are saying very little about this.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 7:43:09 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 265
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The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, Police Chief Roy Melnick said.
"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."
Melnick said police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but police were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed.
Boy 8 charged...
...there may be more to the story than meets the eye. According to the above, the police are looking into the possibility that one or both men were abusing the boy.
Whatever the case may be, an 8 year old should not have easy access to a loaded gun.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 9:12:11 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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I'm not saying everyone who owns a gun will misuse their guns, but statistics indicate people who own guns are more likely to use them in domestic disputes. When tempers rage people tend not to think straight and they let their emotions take control. Then before you know it someone ends up dead. Gun owners can say all they like I would never do something like that, but that's probably what the people who did use their guns in domestic disputes said. There's been a rash of Men killing their entire families and children's accidental (I don't really consider them accidents)shootings. You just can't predict the future no matter how well you maintain your guns.
Links with Statistics:
Stop Handgun Violence
Kids and Guns
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Speak Out
NEAHIN
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 9:21:42 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2237
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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It wasn't the guns that caused this tragedy. Something inside him broke or more likely was broken. The rage he felt was what drove him to murder. God have mercy on him and his family.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 9:42:09 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
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From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
It wasn't the guns that caused this tragedy. Something inside him broke or more likely was broken. The rage he felt was what drove him to murder. God have mercy on him and his family.
Yes, it never is the gun's fault in these tragedies, it's always the people who are behind the triggers fault. Yes, we should all pray for this broken little child. I hope he gets all the counseling he will surely need. May God help his family and friends through this difficult time.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 9:52:35 PM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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I've worked with a few young children with severe rage issues. Those children have an unbelievable strength when they are going off. I remember when one 8 year old went off on a rage when I was working by myself one night. He broke a cast iron napkin holder with his bare hands and then grabbed a fireplace poker and was hitting the bricks so hard that chunks of the bricks were falling out. He was going after another girl who he had issues with. There were warning signs that all heck was going to break loose in his eyes. One time when he went off it took 3 grown men to restrain him. One of the reasons for his anger was that he witnessed his father murder someone, with a knife.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 9:57:14 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1499
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quote:
Children learn guns kill, they learn if you get mad at someone you can use guns to kill to settle the dispute.
Huh?!
Who's teaching children that, exactly?
Responsible gun owners most certainly DO NOT teach that if you get mad at someone you can use guns to kill to settle the dispute. I grew up with a whole lot of guns, and we were trained from a very early age that guns can kill and that you would NEVER, EVER even POINT it in the direction of another person, loaded or not, unless you were convinced that that person was intent on killing YOU. Much less actually shoot someone.
As for domestic disputes, it's interesting to look at the statistics for 2000-2005 at http://www.wvdcjs.com/publications/Official%20Reports%20of%20Domestic%20Violence%20Report,%202000-2005.pdf and realize that if you look at weapons types when weapons are used, firearms are 19.1%, but "other" is at 19.4%. "Other" includes things like drugs, poison, explosives, asphyxiation, and even cars. So it would appear that if firearms were not an option, people would get... creative (it doesn't count knives, they have their own category at 16.9%). At the moment, guns are the primary thing in the US, because guns are available and the first thing the assailant thinks of. In Britain, guns are far less common, so people are statistically more likely to reach for a knife. Perhaps it would be more efficient to try to address domestic violence in general, than blame guns and take all those away, as people will just go to the next logical weapon in progression.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/8/2008 10:04:52 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
I've worked with a few young children with severe rage issues. Those children have an unbelievable strength when they are going off. I remember when one 8 year old went off on a rage when I was working by myself one night. He broke a cast iron napkin holder with his bare hands and then grabbed a fireplace poker and was hitting the bricks so hard that chunks of the bricks were falling out. He was going after another girl who he had issues with. There were warning signs that all heck was going to break loose in his eyes. One time when he went off it took 3 grown men to restrain him. One of the reasons for his anger was that he witnessed his father murder someone, with a knife.
That is so awful. It would be a bad enough thing for an adult to witness, but for one of God's innocent children. I hope his story had a happy ending. I feel so badly for the things children have to witness and deal with today. I wish I could wave a magic wand and take away all their pain.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 12:17:57 AM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 468
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Children learn guns kill, they learn if you get mad at someone you can use guns to kill to settle the dispute.
Huh?!
Who's teaching children that, exactly?
Responsible gun owners most certainly DO NOT teach that if you get mad at someone you can use guns to kill to settle the dispute. I grew up with a whole lot of guns, and we were trained from a very early age that guns can kill and that you would NEVER, EVER even POINT it in the direction of another person, loaded or not, unless you were convinced that that person was intent on killing YOU. Much less actually shoot someone.
As for domestic disputes, it's interesting to look at the statistics for 2000-2005 at http://www.wvdcjs.com/publications/Official%20Reports%20of%20Domestic%20Violence%20Report,%202000-2005.pdf and realize that if you look at weapons types when weapons are used, firearms are 19.1%, but "other" is at 19.4%. "Other" includes things like drugs, poison, explosives, asphyxiation, and even cars. So it would appear that if firearms were not an option, people would get... creative (it doesn't count knives, they have their own category at 16.9%). At the moment, guns are the primary thing in the US, because guns are available and the first thing the assailant thinks of. In Britain, guns are far less common, so people are statistically more likely to reach for a knife. Perhaps it would be more efficient to try to address domestic violence in general, than blame guns and take all those away, as people will just go to the next logical weapon in progression.
But domestic violence is like an elephant in the room that most are trying to ignore. Seems many would rather argue about who should get to have which guns, how many of them, when and why than to even discuss the issue of domestic violence or what should be done about it. Meanwhile, domestic violence kills some and wounds many others in deep ways that are hard to heal. Ways often involving issues with trust, rage and/or violence that can last for very long times in the abused person's life or even in the lives of the family members who just had to witness the abuse...
For an 8 year old to intentionally kill I find myself having to wonder what, exactly, is the motive that the police have mentioned but won't say. It seems rather likely to involve some sort of family history.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 12:32:35 AM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Children learn guns kill, they learn if you get mad at someone you can use guns to kill to settle the dispute.
Huh?!
Who's teaching children that, exactly?
T.V., News, Newpapers, other kids, video games etc..
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 1:18:24 AM
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His_4_Ever
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ST. JOHNS, Ariz. – A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use a rifle, the clergyman said Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns, said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a .22-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple but said Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," Sauter said.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 3:50:30 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3166
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
Who's teaching children that, exactly?
T.V., News, Newpapers, other kids, video games etc..
..and they say a village raises a child. Nope. This isn't about murder or guns. Its about poor parenting. The cure isn't gunlaws. The cure is Jesus Christ as head of a two parent home...not more restrictive laws.
If all these factors lead to this tragedy, then its a fact the family is under attack and needs our prayers, attention to legislation, and help.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 8:29:27 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2237
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. – A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use a rifle, the clergyman said Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns, said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a .22-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple but said Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," Sauter said.
I disagree that he didn't know what he was doing if he was taught how to shoot to kill animals. There is much more to this story. I grew up in the country where kids started hunting at that age. They didn't accidentally or intentionally kill their parent and his friend.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 9:33:15 AM
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solo_soprano22
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I wonder if the boy had been abused. I've heard of similar acts of violence against family, but then it turned out that someone was doing something to the child.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 10:45:14 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1499
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quote:
T.V., News, Newpapers, other kids, video games etc..
That's easy enough to say, but you're not really providing any proof there.
In the news, newspaper, tv, etc, killing people is generally portrayed as a negative and horrible thing, whether it's fiction or actual news. They're certainly not portraying it as an "okay" solution to merely being "mad" at somebody. In most video games that involve guns, you use the guns because the aliens, enemy soldiers, etc, are trying to kill YOU. And, frankly, both those types of video games, and those types of TV shows, clearly state they are not suitable for younger viewers, which would certainly include 8 year olds.
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I disagree that he didn't know what he was doing if he was taught how to shoot to kill animals. There is much more to this story. I grew up in the country where kids started hunting at that age. They didn't accidentally or intentionally kill their parent and his friend.
Yeah. My parents started teaching me gun safety when I was 4. It never even occurred to me to use a gun on another human who wasn't currently threatening my life, no matter how mad I was at them. Even though I knew where all our guns were, and how to use them.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 12:55:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5918
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From: Northern Califonria
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Would you all feel better if he had pushed them out the window? I get the feeling the fact that people are dead isn't that big of deal, and the chance to use this tragedy to further the anti-gun(civil rights) agenda is far more important..
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 3:22:29 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
Who's teaching children that, exactly?
T.V., News, Newpapers, other kids, video games etc..
..and they say a village raises a child. Nope. This isn't about murder or guns. Its about poor parenting. The cure isn't gunlaws. The cure is Jesus Christ as head of a two parent home...not more restrictive laws.
If all these factors lead to this tragedy, then its a fact the family is under attack and needs our prayers, attention to legislation, and help.
Apparently Jesus Christ was the head of the home as they cared enough to even asked their Priest if they should teach him to use a gun.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 4:01:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5918
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
Who's teaching children that, exactly?
T.V., News, Newpapers, other kids, video games etc..
..and they say a village raises a child. Nope. This isn't about murder or guns. Its about poor parenting. The cure isn't gunlaws. The cure is Jesus Christ as head of a two parent home...not more restrictive laws.
If all these factors lead to this tragedy, then its a fact the family is under attack and needs our prayers, attention to legislation, and help.
Apparently Jesus Christ was the head of the home as they cared enough to even asked their Priest if they should teach him to use a gun.
Assumption...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 4:46:38 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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I am required to block certain individuals and therefore cannot see what they have written or respond to them. So please don't mistake my not answering as agreeing with them or not wanting to stand up for my views.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
That's easy enough to say, but you're not really providing any proof there.
In the news, newspaper, tv, etc, killing people is generally portrayed as a negative and horrible thing, whether it's fiction or actual news. They're certainly not portraying it as an "okay" solution to merely being "mad" at somebody. In most video games that involve guns, you use the guns because the aliens, enemy soldiers, etc, are trying to kill YOU. And, frankly, both those types of video games, and those types of TV shows, clearly state they are not suitable for younger viewers, which would certainly include 8 year olds.
It doesn't matter if shootings are portrayed as negative in or on the news. I think to an 8 year old they just view it, as means to the end. Just because video games are not suitable for 8 year olds doesn't mean they don't play them. I think peer influence also plays a big part. Parents may like to think their children are "little angels" because they didn't bring them up that way, but you'd be surprised at what they talk about or call other children when mommy and daddy are not around. I use to listen to kids outside my window and when I when I told their parents what these kids were saying I would frequently get "not my child", "my child would never say something like that" or "you must have something wrong with your hearing, my child would never say something like that".
< Message edited by campbe33 -- 11/9/2008 7:04:06 PM >
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 4:55:25 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 265
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
It doesn't matter if shootings are portrayed as negative in or on the news. I think to an 8 year old they just view it, as means to the end. Just because video games are not suitable for 8 year olds doesn't mean they don't play them. I think peer influence also plays a big part. Parents may like to think their children are "little angels" because they didn't bring them up that way, but you'd be surprised at what they talk about or call other children when mommy and daddy are not around. I use to listen to kids outside my window and when I when I told their parents what these kids were saying I would frequently get "not my child", "my child would never say something like that" or "you must have something wrong with your hearing, my child would never say something like that".
"Not my child". I can't tell you how many times I have heard this. I'm glad I had a Dad that did not take that attitude. He would take me aside and we would have a heart to heart talk during which he would discover the truth. Then we would continue discussion on the improper act or words coming from his son and discipline would be used if he thought necessary. I'm so glad my Dad loved me enough to do this.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 5:51:38 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1499
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
It doesn't matter if shootings are portrayed as negative in or on the news. I think to an 8 year old they just view it, as means to the end. Just because video games are not suitable for 8 year olds doesn't mean they don't play them. I think peer influence also plays a big part. Parents may like to think their children are "little angels" because they didn't bring them up that way, but you'd be surprised at what they talk about or call other children when mommy and daddy are not around. I use to listen to kids outside my window and when I when I told their parents what these kids were saying I would frequently get "not my child", "my child would never say something like that" or "you must have something wrong with your hearing, my child would never say something like that".
So you're saying that 8 year olds are incapable of distinguishing right from wrong, and that parents have no say whatsoever regarding what they do.
Hmm.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 6:20:03 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 598
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
It doesn't matter if shootings are portrayed as negative in or on the news. I think to an 8 year old they just view it, as means to the end. Just because video games are not suitable for 8 year olds doesn't mean they don't play them. I think peer influence also plays a big part. Parents may like to think their children are "little angels" because they didn't bring them up that way, but you'd be surprised at what they talk about or call other children when mommy and daddy are not around. I use to listen to kids outside my window and when I when I told their parents what these kids were saying I would frequently get "not my child", "my child would never say something like that" or "you must have something wrong with your hearing, my child would never say something like that".
So you're saying that 8 year olds are incapable of distinguishing right from wrong, and that parents have no say whatsoever regarding what they do.
Hmm.
Where did I ever say 8 year olds are incapable of distinguishing right from wrong? I am saying just because Parents teach their children right from wrong doesn't mean they're always going to do what is right. Parents can be the best parents in the world, but when they're not around their children they have no idea what their children might be up too. Even adults who do know right from wrong always do what is right. Our jail systems are testimony to that fact. There are many people in jail who had the strictest of upbringings, who still chose a life of crime.
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RE: Boy, 8, Charged with Premeditated Murder of Dad - 11/9/2008 6:31:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5918
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
Where did I ever say 8 year olds are incapable of distinguishing right from wrong?
Right here....
It doesn't matter if shootings are portrayed as negative in or on the news. I think to an 8 year old they just view it, as means to the end.
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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