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Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 6:46:18 AM
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cposey
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Can anyone find a scripture that directly says for us to ask for forgiveness?
I am not looking for the scriptures that pertain to salvation, but after salvation and Jesus dying on the cross.
Thanks
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 10:25:22 AM
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rcjames
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(Luk 17:3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
(Luk 17:4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 10:53:51 AM
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Saved34
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Our sins are already forgiven for Christ's sake. In our position before God we are perfected in Christ.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Actual sins in our lives must be confessed, or brought out to the light. If we confess them he is faithful and just to clean us from them . Our part is to confess, his part is to cleanse and purge us. It's natural for us to ask for forgiveness because our hearts are broken over sin against our God and Father. Ultimate forgiveness(in reference to life Eternal) has already been accomplished on behalf of the believer.
This is a great thread that really presses home the truth. Acknowledging(confessing) our sins is actually keeping his commandment.This is a message that John Got directly from the Lord.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
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2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 3:19:22 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Can anyone find a scripture that directly says for us to ask for forgiveness? Matt 6:12 and Luke 11:4
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 3:19:30 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
(Please allow me to continue on with your excellent choice of Scripture from 1 John 1)
1 John 1:9 is the verse your looking for. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
1 John was written for believers who were already saved. Even though many times 1 John 1:9 is used for the purpose of evangelism pertaining to salvation, it`s context is written pertaining to believers after salvation. Even after we`re saved, we still at times fail and sin. Some like to believe differently, however the verses given to us before and after 1 John 1:9 sadly states that this is not the case. 1 John 1:8+10 tell us "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. --- If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His Word has no place in our lives."
However the good news is that if we sin as believers the Holy Spirit will always convict us of that sin leading us to repent, ask for forgiveness, and most important, receive God`s promise that we are forgiven.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 3:24:18 PM
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drmark
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quote:
1 John was written for believers who were already saved. Even though many times 1 John 1:9 is used for the purpose of evangelism pertaining to salvation, it`s context is written pertaining to believers after salvation. Even after we`re saved, we still at times fail and sin. Some like to believe differently, however the verses given to us before and after 1 John 1:9 sadly states that this is not the case. 1 John 1:8+10 tell us "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. --- If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His Word has no place in our lives." I am sorry, frankman, but you are misunderstanding the context of verses 8 and 10. These warnings refer to the gnostics who had infiltrated the early church and claimed that one could sin all they like with their body since only the spirit was saved and bound for eternity. John specifically states that Christians can be cleansed and purified of ALL sin and unrighteousness when we meet certain conditions.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 4:34:35 PM
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cposey
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So far these are great verses relating to the topic of forgiveness, but none specifically state that we must or should ask God for forgiveness of our sins(after salvation).
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/8/2010 4:56:29 PM
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Saved34
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John Gill puts it flat and to the point. His exegesis of vs 8 of 1John is my thinking as well. To think other wise is not walking in the light.
such persons must be ignorant of themselves, and put a cheat upon themselves, thinking themselves to be something when they are nothing; flattering themselves what pure and holy creatures they are, when there is a fountain of sin and wickedness in them; these are self-deceptions, sad delusions, and gross impositions upon themselves:
To answer the OP original question it is not there because we are already forgiven for Christ's sake. We do however need our feet washed by our master because we can get them soiled in this filthy world.
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2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 12:03:37 AM
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drmark
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quote:
John Gill puts it flat and to the point. His exegesis of vs 8 of 1John is my thinking as well. To think other wise is not walking in the light.
such persons must be ignorant of themselves, and put a cheat upon themselves, thinking themselves to be something when they are nothing; flattering themselves what pure and holy creatures they are, when there is a fountain of sin and wickedness in them; these are self-deceptions, sad delusions, and gross impositions upon themselves: Yes, this would be describing the gnostic heretics quite well!
quote:
To answer the OP original question it is not there because we are already forgiven for Christ's sake. Is there a problem with my understanding of Matt 6:12 and Luke 11:4?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 7:06:51 AM
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cposey
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quote:
Is there a problem with my understanding of Matt 6:12 and Luke 11:4?
No i don't think so. I checked 6 different translations and none of them state that we must/should ask for forgiveness. The Lord's prayer in that particular section, is worded as a comparison that we would forgive others their sins as God forgives us our sins.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 7:55:27 AM
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Saved34
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quote:
Yes, this would be describing the gnostic heretics quite well! All the Epistles of John are great for combating any error that presents it's self in the Church today.
Perfectionism
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Denial of the sin nature
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Antinomian heresy (live like the devil, yet claim Christian)
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Denial of the bodily resurrection of our Lord(separating his divinity from his humanity)
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
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2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 8:51:42 AM
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drmark
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quote:
No i don't think so. I checked 6 different translations and none of them state that we must/should ask for forgiveness. I must be missing something. The Lord's Prayer is addressed to God. The phrase in question comes immediately after the specific petition for "daily bread". Many scholars claim "daily" also applies to the very next petition for forgiveness. Thus the Lord's prayer directly says for us to ask God for forgiveness. IMHO
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 3:13:20 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
So far these are great verses relating to the topic of forgiveness, but none specifically state that we must or should ask God for forgiveness of our sins(after salvation).
Ever heard of the great O.T. Bible character named King David? He was a man chosen after God`s own heart. Yet like all of us at times, he failed and sinned. Then David prayed this prayer for forgiveness recorded for us in Ps. 51. I`ll quote parts of it here and there. Please read the whole Chapter. "Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, --- Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. --- Hide Your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity.--- Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me." Sounds like a prayer of forgiveness to me by one who is already a chosen servant of God.
1 John 1:9 is a verse recorded in the First Epistle of John which was written to believers warning them of the false teachers entering the Church at that time. John wrote to believers warning them of the false teachings of the Gnostics, Docetics and others who were denying the incarnation of Christ etc.. My many Commentaries all agree that John`s First Epistle is addressed to saved Christian readers like you and me, thus meaning 1 John 1:9 is also a prayer of forgiveness for Christians to pray after salvation.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 3:35:22 PM
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cposey
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quote:
Ever heard of the great O.T. Bible character named King David?
Take your sarcasm and you know where you can put it. By the way, King David was under the old covenant wasn't he?
I asked about after Christ's sacrifice.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 3:36:54 PM
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cposey
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quote:
I must be missing something. The Lord's Prayer is addressed to God. The phrase in question comes immediately after the specific petition for "daily bread". Many scholars claim "daily" also applies to the very next petition for forgiveness. Thus the Lord's prayer directly says for us to ask God for forgiveness. IMHO
So where would the as/like we forgive others their sins come into play?
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 3:45:04 PM
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drmark
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quote:
So where would the as/like we forgive others their sins come into play? God commands us to love one another. An important part of loving is forgiving one another. Obviously we don't forgive God for anything. The prayer specifically requests God's forgiveness - isn't that the question of your OP?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 3:55:18 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
quote:
Ever heard of the great O.T. Bible character named King David?
Take your sarcasm and you know where you can put it. By the way, King David was under the old covenant wasn't he?
I asked about after Christ's sacrifice.
Old covenant, YES; but also same blood.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 4:22:32 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Old covenant, YES; but also same blood. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think cposey wants his thread to go this direction. The Atonement of Christ was an historical event occurring in human time. Thus Christ's Blood had nothing to do with OT forgiveness! Let's stick with the subject, folks.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 4:56:06 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
quote:
Is there a problem with my understanding of Matt 6:12 and Luke 11:4?
No i don't think so. I checked 6 different translations and none of them state that we must/should ask for forgiveness. The Lord's prayer in that particular section, is worded as a comparison that we would forgive others their sins as God forgives us our sins.
Great question, cposey. We've been around this block before but because of all the MISunderstanding of forgiveness it is worthy of travelling (around the block, that is) more than once.  And amen to what I emboldened above.
And in reference to the passages from IJohn, what does it mean to 'walk in the light'? The fruit of walking in the light is goodness, righteousness and truth; that which pleases the Lord. (Eph 5:9-10)
God's desire is for truth within, in the innermost being. This truth includes being truthful about ourselves. So when we sin, the Lord wants to hear our truthful acknowledgement and confession of that sin.
So in James 5:16 he exhorts us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
We do not need to ask the Lord's forgiveness. We are forgiven. What we are to do is be truthful, honest about our sin, confessing it to Him and receiving and believing the forgiveness that is found in Him.
It's there. It is ours for the taking. And we take it anew each time we confess.
And if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 6:30:19 PM
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drmark
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quote:
We do not need to ask the Lord's forgiveness. We are forgiven. What we are to do is be truthful, honest about our sin, confessing it to Him and receiving and believing the forgiveness that is found in Him. I guess I have a much different belief about forgiveness!
Acts 2:38 - Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
Acts 8:22 - Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
James 5:15 - And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
What kind of "confession and repentance" says "Oh well, at least Jesus already died for me so I'm forgiven regardless of whether I ask or not"...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 9:07:37 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We do not need to ask the Lord's forgiveness. We are forgiven. What we are to do is be truthful, honest about our sin, confessing it to Him and receiving and believing the forgiveness that is found in Him. I guess I have a much different belief about forgiveness!
Acts 2:38 - Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
Acts 8:22 - Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
James 5:15 - And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
What kind of "confession and repentance" says "Oh well, at least Jesus already died for me so I'm forgiven regardless of whether I ask or not"...
So how many times does Jesus need to die for you, drmark? He died once for me. He died once for the forgiveness of ALL of my sin, past, present and future. His forgiveness was complete at Calvary. I receive it as I repent and confess my sin.
I am forgiven. Period. I do not have to ask, wondering if He will.
But when we live in close relationship with someone, we acknowledge when we have done wrong. That is called being honest, truthful about our sin, confessing. And when that someone is Jesus, we receive the forgiveness He bought at Calvary.
I am forgiven. I don't take that lightly. I don't mock my Jesus. I love Him and value highly the One Who has done and continues to do ALL for me. But when I transgress, I tell Him. I call myself guilty. And I thank Him for His wonderful love, mercy and grace to one so undeserving.
To ask means there is a possibility of denial. As one who is redeemed, I am forgiven eternally. God is faithful. I do not have to ask again. He is not like man. He does not change His mind. And for that I am eternally thankful as well. \o/\o/\o/
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 10:20:05 PM
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drmark
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quote:
To ask means there is a possibility of denial. I guess that's your viewpoint, LL. Mine is different. To ask is to humbly admit my failure, sincerely express my remorse, and confidently approach the Throne of Grace. God may be faithful but we are not always the same. Asking forgiveness is for our benefit, LL, not His!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 10:32:30 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We do not need to ask the Lord's forgiveness. We are forgiven. What we are to do is be truthful, honest about our sin, confessing it to Him and receiving and believing the forgiveness that is found in Him. I guess I have a much different belief about forgiveness!
Acts 2:38 - Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
Acts 8:22 - Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
James 5:15 - And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
What kind of "confession and repentance" says "Oh well, at least Jesus already died for me so I'm forgiven regardless of whether I ask or not"...
So how many times does Jesus need to die for you, drmark? He died once for me. He died once for the forgiveness of ALL of my sin, past, present and future. His forgiveness was complete at Calvary. I receive it as I repent and confess my sin.
I am forgiven. Period. I do not have to ask, wondering if He will.
But when we live in close relationship with someone, we acknowledge when we have done wrong. That is called being honest, truthful about our sin, confessing. And when that someone is Jesus, we receive the forgiveness He bought at Calvary.
I am forgiven. I don't take that lightly. I don't mock my Jesus. I love Him and value highly the One Who has done and continues to do ALL for me. But when I transgress, I tell Him. I call myself guilty. And I thank Him for His wonderful love, mercy and grace to one so undeserving.
To ask means there is a possibility of denial. As one who is redeemed, I am forgiven eternally. God is faithful. I do not have to ask again. He is not like man. He does not change His mind. And for that I am eternally thankful as well. \o/\o/\o/
All I can say is, Amen. That's pure bible truth.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/9/2010 10:49:41 PM
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drmark
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quote:
That's pure bible truth. Only if you write off the six verses I've already shared.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 1:55:14 AM
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gralan
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Perhaps, my brother and sister, there is a lesson from real life that can be used to illustrate this seeming dichotomy.
If I may:
When I married my wife I committed to better or worse even in terms of our spiritual walk. This was my understanding. My role is to love and keep current accounts clear with my wife; she owes me nothing in my view. I do expect her to maintain her relationship with Jesus and fellow Christians, and she rightly expects that of me. We are priests together in God's Holy Nation. We are uniquely two disciples that also have one flesh, which means that there is an actual "one disciple" unit called "my wife and I" also.
When my wife broke fellowship with me, and acted in a way that allowed a biblical reason for divorce, she sinned against God, the other, herself and me.
When she asked me for forgiveness, it was already hers. I had already committed to that position when we married, and it was how I did and still do consider myself under obligation. She did not receive my forgiveness because she asked. She had it anyway. However, there is more to forgiveness than just being forgiven. There is healing that needs to take place.
I am not God. However, if I can act in this manner and consider it to be my duty as a child of God to believe this is the godly way I'm to act, how much more does our Heavenly Father act with mercy and grace to forgive us all of our sins; especially since there is an obligation already committed to by all parties involved.
There is a duty to repent, a duty to understand the offense, a duty to commit to a different course of action, and a duty to receive forgiveness that is offered.
It seems to me that both of your positions is adequately covered in this real life scenario. It is often when we get into theoretical discussion that things go awry.
BTW, my wife and I have already discussed the ways in which we will be transparent before God and others and the contexts in which that can be shared and how much is to be communicated. I am not betraying any confidences here.
But then I think that intentionally living as a disciple has helped my wife and I to get to where we are in our walk under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. There is a growing call for intentional Christian living in the modern Christian Arena (otherwise aka Christendom).
May we all find ourselves continuing to reflect the glory of our Lord, from glory to glory, just as from the Lord. Peace in Him. Out.
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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