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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:13:47 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
they conclude it with if it be Thy will. and the prayer is hindered because they are uncertain of His will, His Word.
I guess Jesus didn't know what He was talking about when He instructed us on how to pray correctly.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:24:20 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16983
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Someone here said that I belong to a cult and am blasphemus. What do you say to that moderator? Isn't that harassment of another believer. Or are you bias?
I'd say you asked the question, don't ask if you don't want the answer.
Also, they didn't say you are blasphemous, the idea that WOF promotes that God "can't do anything about it" is blasphemous
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:42:32 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
The reason people are confused and have a prayer problem is that they have their rules and laws all mixed up together. They take rules which govern one kind of praying and try to to apply them to other kinds of praying.
One common misconception people have is they think they should conclude every prayer with the words, if it be Thy will. They claim that is how Jesus prayed. However, Jesus prayed this way on only one occasion that is recorded in Scripture. That was in the Garden of Gethsemane when He prayed the prayer of Consecration.
When they attempt to pray the prayer of faith ( the prayer of petition, the prayer to change things), they conclude it with if it be Thy will. and the prayer is hindered because they are uncertain of His will, His Word.
Someone here said that I belong to a cult and am blasphemous. What do you say to that moderator? Isn't that harassment of another believer. Or are you bias?
Peace, Golfjack
Rules and laws of prayer? What in the world are you talking about?
First of all there is no such thing. I have never in my life heard anyone end a prayer with if it be thy will. I have never heard someone claim that is how Jesus prayed.
This whole concept you have is so far from scripture it might as was be as far as the Pegasus galaxy is from here. Where are you getting this stuff from? I'm being genuine. Here are some things that actually hinder prayer:
1 Peter 3:7 (New King James Version)
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.
Seems a husbands prayers are hindered if he doesn't honor and dwell with her like God wants him to.
Proverbs 28:9
9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.
Basically if we live a life of disobedience to God how can we expect Him to her us?
James 4:3
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
Wrong motives hinder prayer.
1 John 5:14
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
It would seem not asking according to His will hinders prayer.
1 John 3:20-22
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
Again it's about obedience.
Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear.
Sin hinders us.
James 1:2-7 (New King James Version)
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
The Lord promises in His word that He will give wisdom so why should I doubt that?
But doubt hinders prayer also. If I go to God with the attitude that he can't do anything or won't do anything anyway why is He gonna listen to that?
diakriðnw/Diakrino/doubt
1. to separate, make a distinction, discriminate, to prefer
2. to learn by discrimination, to try, decide
a. to determine, give judgment, decide a dispute
3. to withdraw from one, desert
4. to separate one's self in a hostile spirit, to oppose, strive with dispute, contend
5. to be at variance with one's self, hesitate, doubt
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:46:03 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16983
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
Someone here said that I belong to a cult and am blasphemus. What do you say to that moderator? Isn't that harassment of another believer. Or are you bias?
I'd say you asked the question, don't ask if you don't want the answer.
Also, they didn't say you are blasphemous, the idea that WOF promotes that God "can't do anything about it" is blasphemous
Are you serious? Do you seriously think thats what blaspheming is?
quote:
Also, they didn't say you are blasphemous, they are saying the idea that WOF promotes that God "can't do anything about it" is blasphemous.
better?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:52:33 PM
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golfjack
Posts: 63
Joined: 10/23/2008
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Child for Jesus, Of course God heals us, and He still does today. You tried to trap me in saying I believed in faith instead of God. Please study Mark 5:25-34, Notice in verse 34, Your faith has made you well. We can have the same faith today. If we cannot, prove it by scripture. WE must have faith in what God can do for us, and if you find it in His Word, you can have it. Notice, I said you can have it.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:53:53 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Golfjack,
Please answer my questions. Please address our actual responses to you.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:55:00 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
Joined: 9/22/2008
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Child for Jesus, Of course God heals us, and He still does today. You tried to trap me in saying I believed in faith instead of God. Please study Mark 5:25-34, Notice in verse 34, Your faith has made you well. We can have the same faith today. If we cannot, prove it by scripture. WE must have faith in what God can do for us, and if you find it in His Word, you can have it. Notice, I said you can have it.
Peace, Golfjack
Amen!
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7 
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:55:30 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
Are you serious? Do you seriously think thats what blaspheming is?
Blasphemy is defined by American Heritage Dictionary as "The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God." Yes, I'd call claiming that God can only act when men say that He can act to be claiming the rights of God for oneself. That's exactly what WOF does. They claim for themselves rights that are inherently and irrevocably God's.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 7:57:51 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Child for Jesus, Of course God heals us, and He still does today. You tried to trap me in saying I believed in faith instead of God. Please study Mark 5:25-34, Notice in verse 34, Your faith has made you well. We can have the same faith today. If we cannot, prove it by scripture. WE must have faith in what God can do for us, and if you find it in His Word, you can have it. Notice, I said you can have it.
You've set up a strawman. None of those who criticize WOF teachings have said that God does not heal today. What we have said is that is that great faith does not always lead to God immediately fulfilling His promises, Hebrews 11 proves this, as do many other verses of scripture that have been put forth, in posts you have never addressed.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:01:32 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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blasfhmeÑw/Blasphemeo/Blaspheme
1. to speak reproachfully, rail at, revile, calumniate, blaspheme
2. to be evil spoken of, reviled, railed at
reproach
1: an expression of rebuke or disapproval 2: the act or action of reproaching or disapproving <was beyond reproach>3 a: a cause or occasion of blame, discredit, or disgrace b: discredit, disgrace 4 obsolete : one subjected to censure or scorn
Blaspheme
transitive verb 1 : to speak of or address with irreverence 2 : revile, abuse : intransitive verb : to utter blasphemy
With statements like:
You see, God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him. Do you have a problem with that?
Do we have a god of this world that roars like a roaring lion? Yes, the enemy has a legal right to be here, and God cannot do anything about it. What say you?
That to us here is tantamount to blaspheme. You, generally speaking, discredit and disgrace God's name and power when you say He cannot do anything about Satan's power here on Earth and also say He can't do anything unless a mere human being asks Him. God cannot do anything without my permission? What kind of god is that? He can't do anything about Satan? What kind of God is that?
Satan is the one that cannot act without God (see Job) and God is the Sovereign Ruler of this Universe. He doesn't need anyone's permission to do anything.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:27:34 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3037
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
The reason people are confused and have a prayer problem is that they have their rules and laws all mixed up together. They take rules which govern one kind of praying and try to to apply them to other kinds of praying.
One common misconception people have is they think they should conclude every prayer with the words, if it be Thy will. They claim that is how Jesus prayed. However, Jesus prayed this way on only one occasion that is recorded in Scripture. That was in the Garden of Gethsemane when He prayed the prayer of Consecration.
Peace, Golfjack
Wrong again, Sherlock!!
Jesus prayed that way here in order to teach us how we are to pray...to leave us with a model for prayer:
9 "In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen." -Matthew 6
And then again in the Garden of Gethsemane:
35 "He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. 36 And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." -Mark 14
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:28:43 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Child for Jesus, Of course God heals us, and He still does today. You tried to trap me in saying I believed in faith instead of God. Please study Mark 5:25-34, Notice in verse 34, Your faith has made you well. We can have the same faith today. If we cannot, prove it by scripture. WE must have faith in what God can do for us, and if you find it in His Word, you can have it. Notice, I said you can have it.
Peace, Golfjack
Where did I say God doesn't heal us? Where did I say He didn't heal today?
I didn't trying to trap anyone. Faith has to be place in God.
Mark 5:25-34 (New King James Version)
25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years, 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment. 28 For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.” 29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?” 31 But His disciples said to Him, “You see the multitude thronging You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’” 32 And He looked around to see her who had done this thing. 33 But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.”
We can and do have the same faith today. However that faith is to be placed in God. This woman's trust/confidence was in God. He believe that He could heal her and He did.
piðstiv/Pistis/faith
1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1. relating to God
1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
2. relating to Christ
1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
3. the religious beliefs of Christians
4. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2. fidelity, faithfulness
1. the character of one who can be relied on
Basically what Jesus said to her is your belief in who I am, and the One that sent me, your confidence that in Me, your trust in the One that sent me has made you well.
Hebrews 11:1-2
View commentary related to this passage
Hebrews 11:1-2;6
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Notice what verse 27 and 28 of Mark 5 says,When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment. For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.” It's not a stretch to say that she heard about Him and all the things He was doing. She was confident that He could do it for her too. To me Jesus telling her, Your faith has made you well implies that she had confidence in God and that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. This woman pushed through the crowd to get to Him. She had tried everything and spent all her money. Then she went after Jesus because she knew He would make her well.
diligent: characterized by steady, earnest, and energetic effort : painstaking
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:31:37 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
Are you serious? Do you seriously think thats what blaspheming is?
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Blasphemy is defined by American Heritage Dictionary as "The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God." Yes, I'd call claiming that God can only act when men say that He can act to be claiming the rights of God for oneself. That's exactly what WOF does. They claim for themselves rights that are inherently and irrevocably God's.
Little gods. I mean was Adam an exact duplicate of God. Couldn't he fly like the birds and swim like the fish? I mean I heard he even flew to the moon.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:34:26 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
blasfhmeÑw/Blasphemeo/Blaspheme
1. to speak reproachfully, rail at, revile, calumniate, blaspheme
2. to be evil spoken of, reviled, railed at
reproach
1: an expression of rebuke or disapproval 2: the act or action of reproaching or disapproving <was beyond reproach>3 a: a cause or occasion of blame, discredit, or disgrace b: discredit, disgrace 4 obsolete : one subjected to censure or scorn
Blaspheme
transitive verb 1 : to speak of or address with irreverence 2 : revile, abuse : intransitive verb : to utter blasphemy
With statements like:
You see, God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him. Do you have a problem with that?
Do we have a god of this world that roars like a roaring lion? Yes, the enemy has a legal right to be here, and God cannot do anything about it. What say you?
That to us here is tantamount to blaspheme. You, generally speaking, discredit and disgrace God's name and power when you say He cannot do anything about Satan's power here on Earth and also say He can't do anything unless a mere human being asks Him. God cannot do anything without my permission? What kind of god is that? He can't do anything about Satan? What kind of God is that?
Satan is the one that cannot act without God (see Job) and God is the Sovereign Ruler of this Universe. He doesn't need anyone's permission to do anything.
quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
Alot of twisting words going on here, and you said it...."That to us"
There is no twisting of any words. What are you talking about?
< Message edited by Child4Jesus -- 11/12/2008 8:44:29 PM >
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:37:30 PM
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golfjack
Posts: 63
Joined: 10/23/2008
Status: offline
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The Bible says what it says. It was her faith that made her whole. I guess you are a spin doctor.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:37:58 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2996
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
WE must have faith in what God can do for us, and if you find it in His Word, you can have it. Notice, I said you can have it.
And who is in control in this situation? I guess Janis Joplin was correct when she sang "O, Lord won't you give me a Mercedes-Benz, my friends all have Porsches, I must make amends." And she didn't include "If you will" so she must have been a card-carying member of a WOF church.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:43:27 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 162
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
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GOLFJACK, could you please, please, please, answer one for all of us who really want to know.
1Tim 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent illnesses.
Why didn't Paul tell Timothy to appeal to the atonement, have more faith, pray harder, and/or tell him it's not God's will he be sick?
Again, please.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:48:32 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 162
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
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Misty, you say those who die with cancer simply accepted the disease rather than claiming in faith for healing.
My sister fought cancer for 5 years. She never accepted the disease. She never invited it in. She did not sin to receive it. She received a word from God that she would be healed. Was He a liar? Did she not have enough faith to accept that word? Be very careful how you answer.
My sister lived her faith. She believed God 100%. She believed He could heal her 100%. In fact, she KNEW He was going to heal her. She trusted God 100%. In fact, 4 days before she died when I had to tell her that the doctors said she wasn't going to make it more than 6 weeks, she didn't understand what they were talking about BECAUSE she knew God was going to heal her. Yet, she died of cancer.
Explain that. And don't you dare say she didn't have enough faith.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:48:57 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3037
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
The Bible says what it says. It was her faith that made her whole. I guess you are a spin doctor.
Peace, Golfjack
No, he just studies to show himself approved...rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Something that is sorely lacking in WOF'ers!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:50:05 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2996
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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Misty and Golfjack,
There are several rules of bible interpretation
- scripture must be compared against other scripture
- exegis - the reading out of scripture must be used over esegis - the reading of one's feelings/opinions into scripture
- the CONTEXT of scripture must be used in favor of pulling a verse and using it out of context
You have been repeatedly to address the scriptures that use "by his stripes we are healed" to adress spiritual healing instead of physical healing.
You have been asked to addess the fact Paul was not healed not could he always heal. There were times when the crowds pressed Jesus for physical healing yet he walked away.
WOF subordinates the Almighty and makes Him a genie who must do what ever he is told.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:51:35 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
GOLFJACK, could you please, please, please, answer one for all of us who really want to know.
1Tim 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent illnesses.
Why didn't Paul tell Timothy to appeal to the atonement, have more faith, pray harder, and/or tell him it's not God's will he be sick?
Again, please.
I would guess it is because He didn't know these faith formulas and spiritual laws. He didn't know that you can have what you say. He didn't know that all you have to do is say, "By His stripes I am healed," to activate his healing. He didn't even know that his physical healing is provided for in the atonement. He also didn't know that all he has to to is name it and claim it. He didn't know he could have had his best life now. He didn't have the kind of faith needed to get his healing. He accepted his illness.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 8:54:44 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
Joined: 9/22/2008
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
Misty, you say those who die with cancer simply accepted the disease rather than claiming in faith for healing.
My sister fought cancer for 5 years. She never accepted the disease. She never invited it in. She did not sin to receive it. She received a word from God that she would be healed. Was He a liar? Did she not have enough faith to accept that word? Be very careful how you answer.
My sister lived her faith. She believed God 100%. She believed He could heal her 100%. In fact, she KNEW He was going to heal her. She trusted God 100%. In fact, 4 days before she died when I had to tell her that the doctors said she wasn't going to make it more than 6 weeks, she didn't understand what they were talking about BECAUSE she knew God was going to heal her. Yet, she died of cancer.
Explain that. And don't you dare say she didn't have enough faith.
First of all, I have no clue what you mean by saying, "Be very careful how you answer." And your statement, "Don't you dare say she didn't have enough faith." Because I have already addressed this once with you, maybe someone overlooked it, so go back a few pages. And for future warnings, if you don't want the truth, do not ask............Do not make this thread a PERSONAL issue.
Right Mod??
If Mod is ok with it....I will answer you directly, thats a promise my friend 
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 9:03:48 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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I am asking for what you two think is true in regards to my two simple questions and they are ignored.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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