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Oh, and you got me to thinking.... I think I'll have a look at the Greek on that Micha'el/haSatan debate over Moshe's body. The thought that came to me was this: Were they actually arguing over WHERE his body was, or were they arguing about something else?

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The thought that came to me was this: Were they actually arguing over WHERE his body was, or were they arguing about something else?

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ORIGINAL: SonicStudent

The Two Witnesses

I just want to put something by everyone. Now please don’t jump all over me as if I’m making a big definite statement. I’m only putting this up because while I was reading, it came to me and felt right. So I’m not putting this up as some radical teaching that I’m saying is correct. Only that it seems to fit, others seem to have had the same observation and if nothing else is interesting and worth pondering.

I know that many already believe (not all) that the identity of the two witnesses could be Elijah & Moses. So, not being one to accept stuff without there being good biblical reason, I decided to see if that might be right.

I know that the main reason for this belief is because the two witnesses bring about miracles similar to Elijah & Moses in the Old Testament. I.e. bringing fire down from heaven and similar plagues etc.

But there could be more reason than this!

Why does the bible call these two men, ‘the two witnesses’?

I think we should look into this, as it is obviously an important detail of their description.

I was pondering this and thought, where else have Elijah and Moses been mentioned together? Also, where else has there been two men sent from God been together?

The first place I thought of was on the mount of transfiguration. Moses and Elijah appear on the mount to talk with Jesus:

Luke 9: 28-31 28Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

The thing that I questioned here was, why did Moses and Elijah appear here to talk with Jesus about the crucifixion in Jerusalem? I don’t personally feel it was simply for a chat about it! But rather something more was going on.

The conversation was concerning Jesus’ mission, His death and resurrection that Jesus was about to accomplish, His purpose for being on earth this time round. The bible says that they appeared as glorified men!

The next time we see two glorified men is at the actual tomb of Jesus after his death and at the point of resurrection:

Luke 24:1-8 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.'

Once again the bible indicates that two men were present at Jesus’ point of ascension;

Acts 1: 9-12 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11who also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven."

The next time we see two men together is in Revelation, the two witnesses:

Rev 11: 3-6 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands standing before the God of the earth. 5And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

There description here is ‘the two olive trees and two lamp stands’. Olive trees indicates that they are Jewish. Most Jews are expecting Elijah to return before the Messiah comes, so already many accept that Elijah could well be one of these witnesses, and to back that up this witness does very similar things that Elijah did on his first visit. Also many are aware that Elijah never died, but that God took him up, so expect a literal bodily return.

Many believe already that the 2nd witness could be Moses, Another study puts it this way;

(Many of the miracles that will be done, during the Tribulation, by the two witnesses were also done by Moses previously. The following are some of them.
It is written, regarding the Tribulation, AND THE FIRST (angel) WENT, AND POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE EARTH; AND THERE FELL A NOISOME AND GRIEVOUS SORE UPON THE MEN WHICH HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST-Rev 16:2. Moses did something similar in the Old Testament-ref Ex 9:10.
It is written, regarding the two witnesses during the Tribulation, THESE HAVE POWER...OVER WATERS TO TURN THEM TO BLOOD-Rev 11:6. Moses did this in the Old Testament-ref Ex 7:20)

However, many struggle because Elijah never died, but Moses did. Again, this is explained in another study observation:

(Some may say that Moses was never raptured as Elijah was. This is true; nevertheless, consider the following. When Moses died, the Bible tells us that his natural force was not abated. It is written, AND MOSES WAS AN HUNDRED AND TWENTY YEARS OLD WHEN HE DIED: HIS EYE WAS NOT DIM, NOR HIS NATURAL FORCE ABATED (or gone)-Deut 34:7. Since we would expect Moses to have his natural body when he returns during the Tribulation, we then should be able to understand why Satan wanted to find out where his body was. Apparently, he wanted to destroy it. Nevertheless, no man knows where it is. This should have prevented Moses from returning. As it is written, YET MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, WHEN CONTENDING WITH THE DEVIL…ABOUT THE BODY OF MOSES-Jude 9; SO MOSES...DIED...AND HE (the Lord) BURIED HIM...BUT NO MAN KNOWETH OF HIS SEPULCHER UNTO THIS DAY-Deut 34:5,6. It seems God is protecting the body of Moses so that, when the day comes, Moses will appear. God demonstrated how He can keep things from decaying or growing old; as it is written, THY RAIMENT WAXED NOT OLD UPON THEE, NEITHER DID THY FOOT SWELL, THESE FORTY YEARS-Deut 8:4.
Moses wanted to enter the Promised Land, but God told him no. Yet it appears God will yet allow him to enter during the Tribulation. It is written, AND I BESOUGHT THE LORD AT THAT TIME, SAYING, O LORD GOD...I PRAY THEE, LET ME GO OVER, AND SEE THE GOOD LAND THAT IS BEYOND JORDAN...BUT THE LORD WAS WROTH WITH ME FOR YOUR SAKES, AND WOULD NOT HEAR ME: AND THE LORD SAID UNTO ME, LET IT SUFFICE THEE; SPEAK NO MORE UNTO ME OF THIS MATTER-Deut 3:23,25,26)

Anyway, my point is this!

Maybe Moses and Elijah are called the ‘two witnesses’ here because of one simple reason;
They were the only two people on earth ‘Ever’ to ‘literally’ witness the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead!
The apostles and many others witnessed the risen Jesus, but never witnessed Jesus literally rise from the dead! Many believed the apostles witness of the risen Christ, but as a whole the Jewish nation rejected the apostles witness.

Why appear to Jesus to discuss what was about to happen in Jerusalem? They were there for a reason and I’m sure not just for a chat about it.

Why two glorified men in the tomb, who had obviously been there during the resurrection?

Why two glorified men at the ascension, again, possibly as a witness to the event for the end time Jews.

Now it seems too much of a coincidence to me that Moses & Elijah would appear to Jesus to discuss the events of the crucifixion & resurrection and it not be them ‘at the resurrection site’.

The Jews tried to counter the claims that the apostles would say regarding Messiah’s resurrection when they said;
The Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
But if this is right, no man will have excuse, as here are the only two who ever literally witnessed Jesus’ literal resurrection and also witnessed His ascension too!

What an amazing thing this could be! It says in Revelation that everyone hated these two. Their message was clearly not well received. What if that message was a testimony to what they had literally seen? The resurrection from the dead and the ascension of Christ!

Maybe this is what the Jewish nation needs to be able to come to faith as a nation. Maybe it’s God’s time to ‘make straight the paths’ again, before the day of the Lord.

Well this excites me, and my heart and spirit says yes. However, please understand, I’m a simple man who looks for answers in truth. If this is right then wonderful, if not ok.

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In CD 6.11 it is stated that there will arise "one who will teach righteousness at the end of days." The phrase 'the end of days" qualifies this teacher as eschatological. This eschatological teacher is probably identical with the priestly Messiah, since the priestly Messiah is likewise supposed to be a religious teacher. In a complicated pesher-type interpretation in CD (A) 7.19-20, the "star" mentioned in Amos 5:26 is said to be identical to the "star" in Num 24:17; this "star" is understood as "the interpreter of the Law who will come to Damascus" (probably symbolic of the Qumran community). He will be accompanied by the "prince of the congregation,' who is the royal Messiah (see 1QM 5.1; 4Q285 frg. 5. 1-4; 1QSb 5.20 for other references to the "Prince of the Congregation"). Although he is not said to be a priest, this eschatological interpreter of the Law referred to in CD 7.19-20 probably the priestly Messiah who is to appear in tandem with the royal Messiah (see 1QS 9.9-11; CD 19.5-11; 1QSa 2.11-15; 4QFlor [4Q174] 1.11; 4Q161 [4QpIsa] frags. 8-10.18-25). Evidence for this is that T. Levi 18:2-14 speaks of a new priest whom the Lord will raise up from the tribe of Levi and connects this eschatological figure with the "star" of Num 24:17. The eschatological priest shall bring enlightenment to the world, as the priests were intended to do from the beginning (18.3-4, 9); in this regard, Isa 11:2 is said to be fulfilled of him (18.7). (In T. Sim. 7; T. Dan 5.10; T. Naph. 5, 8:2; T. Jos. 19:11 and T. Benj. 11, the tribes of Judah and Levi are singled out as the source of Israel's eschatological salvation.) The priestly Messiah as teacher seems also to be described in 4Q541 [Aaron A] frg. 9. col. 1. 3-4 (parallel to T. Levi 18). This probable eschatological figure is said to "atone for the sons of his generation," which is consistent with his role as priest. In addition, however, he clearly assumes the role of teacher: "His word is like a word of heaven, and his teaching is according to the will of God." This same eschatological priest also assumes the role of teacher in 1QpHab 2.5-10: "They...will not believe when they hear all that is going [to happen to] the final generation from the mouth of the Priest whom God has placed wi[thin the Community] to foretell the fulfillment of all the words of His servants, the prophets." (See J. Collins, The Scepter and the Star, chap. 5.)

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In the Qumran sectarian writings, there is also evidence that a third eschatological figure was expected to appear along side the kingly and priestly messiahs. Based on Deut 18:18-19, Jews from the second-Temple period expected an eschatological prophet: "Until the coming of a prophet and of the messiahs from Aaron and Israel" (1QS 9.11). This one would be a second Moses insofar as he would reveal the will of God to the final generation. It is possible that the readers shared this view and so expected this eschatological prophet to arise at some time in the future in order to complement Jesus, the kingly or Davidic messiah.

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ORIGINAL: SonicStudent

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Oh, and you got me to thinking.... I think I'll have a look at the Greek on that Micha'el/haSatan debate over Moshe's body. The thought that came to me was this: Were they actually arguing over WHERE his body was, or were they arguing about something else?

Let me in Retro, what ya saying???

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But can you explain what you are saying to do with these scriptures, i'm intrigued.

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I always thought of the two witnesses to be Enoch and Elijah because they were both taken to God and never died. There is a verse that says it is apointed unto man once to die.

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Something for you to chew on Sonic:

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Moses stands up against Pharoah and Elijah stands up against Baal, it sure has echoes of the pages of Revelation

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ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC

Greetings in Christ,

My name is Josh, and I am a new user here. I, too, have been seeing a lot of the crazy stuff going on in the world and in the U.S. political scene. I've been doing a lot of research and study, too. I can tell you that my spirit is stirring. I have been asleep, so to speak, for many years. However, my faith is growing stronger again with each passing day. I am glad to be able to find other brethren with whom to discuss hard matters such as these. That being said, I would like to make a comment regarding the OP.

I was just astounded by your connection between the Revelation witnesses and Moses & Elijah. I do believe you have connected some important dots that I never in all my life considered. You know, it really does make sense, too. It is a Biblical principle that their be two witnesses to validate an event or testimony. While us Christians have testimony of the Word and the Holy Spirit, I think the two witnesses are another testimony to the world and the Jewish people during the 7 years.

So many have made arguments against Christianity based on a lack of credible eyewitnesses to the resurrection. While we counter that there were multitudes of witnesses to the risen Christ, we never quite consider that no man or woman actually witnessed the resurrection event. Now, with this connection you made, it makes sense. There were indeed two eyewitnesses to the resurrection. It also makes sense that these two were Moses and Elijah from the transfiguration. While my faith is not dependent on this conjecture or hypothesis, it is definitely very probable and necessary. Didn't Jesus or Paul say that Moses would be Israel's own accuser, too? Something to think about. In either case, good perception, Sonic.

In Christ,

Josh

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ORIGINAL: bob97

Sonic…I think it displays an extreme amount of talent and much perseverance…SO THERE!!

Bob