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RE: Unschooling - 11/7/2008 7:07:11 PM
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cindybode
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Good ramble, Sunny.  I totally agree.
IMHO, people put way too much emphasis on how a child is educated. When they see a shy homeschooled child, they immediately jump to the conclusion that if only the child went to "real" school, he would be more outgoing, as if there have never been any shy publicly schooled children. If a homeschooled child is not disciplined and motivated, or is not good at ____, there must be something wrong with the way the homeschool program is being conducted. Almost every one of those areas actually comes down to either personality/gifts or parenting and not education.
I also agree that "push" is a poor choice of words. External motivation, maybe? 
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If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/10/2008 5:09:49 PM
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Auben
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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We all have our own interpretations. We fill in the blanks as best we can. We jump to conclusions. However, I think the same can be said for the opposite theory. Knowing someone who is successful doesn't mean that someone who is unsuccessful is lacking as a person or as a family. That seems like a handy guess.
Having known most of these families for 15+ years and taught or tutored most of the individuals at one time or another I'm not worried about judging them on the fly.
Sometimes the problem may be within the family. Perhaps one of the parents (or both) is lazy. I've actually never met one of these people although I always hear about them. Sometimes the problem is within the individual. Although almost every homeschooling parent I know is saavy enough to change methods/books/subjects/etc. until they find a way to motivate that one child to some degree.
Personally I think that more problems exist with the nebulous nature of Unschooling. It sounds like such a wonderful thing (and it can be). Word is passed from person to person. But unschooling is generally defined by what it is not. It's very easy for someone with a lack of experience to have faith that everything will come out okay in the end without any effort or thought. And while I think unschooling can be used as a great tool, watchfully and thoughtfully, I think it can leave a student woefully behind if used in a vacuum.
I think the Christ illustration is a good one. We need to be led. God doesn't expect it all from us alone (He doesn't expect us to be passive either). To expect a child to blaze the entire trail alone without any guidance and come out level to a child who had some help and direction, is misguided.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/10/2008 5:46:04 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5147
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From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
Personally I think that more problems exist with the nebulous nature of Unschooling. It sounds like such a wonderful thing (and it can be). Word is passed from person to person. But unschooling is generally defined by what it is not. It's very easy for someone with a lack of experience to have faith that everything will come out okay in the end without any effort or thought.
I agree.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/11/2008 1:19:45 AM
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cindybode
Posts: 1565
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From: Northwest PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auben
Knowing someone who is successful doesn't mean that someone who is unsuccessful is lacking as a person or as a family. That seems like a handy guess.
That's true, and there's the kicker. We'll never really know, because we can't take that person and go back and put him or her in a different setting. We can make an educated guess if we know them, but that's all we're really doing, guessing. Obviously you have much better insight than I regarding the people you know, but I'm sure you'll admit that some people just aren't focused or motivated no matter how they've been taught.
Again, I think you've raised many valid points that parents should consider carefully. I will never say that this style of schooling is best for every child. I wouldn't say that about any method of education. A parent also has to take his or her own assumptions into consideration - if you are uncomfortable with this idea, then you're not going to do it no matter what anyone says. The method you choose will hopefully fit both your child and your comfort level as a parent.
What I run into much too frequently is the assumption that this stlye of schooling doesn't work. People assume my children will always be in low paying jobs, unable to get into college or start a business or follow their dream, because I didn't force them to sit at a table and learn ___. Many people I talk to aren't nearly as respectful as the posters in this thread. 
What I'd love to see is interest-led learning right up there in people's minds as a valid choice with the same "weight," if you will, as school-at-home and classical and Charlotte Mason and . . .with out all the buts and bad examples that usually accompany the discussion. Sometimes I just get very, very tired of having to constantly defend my choice.
_____________________________
If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/11/2008 7:55:39 AM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auben
Personally I think that more problems exist with the nebulous nature of Unschooling. It sounds like such a wonderful thing (and it can be). Word is passed from person to person. But unschooling is generally defined by what it is not. It's very easy for someone with a lack of experience to have faith that everything will come out okay in the end without any effort or thought. And while I think unschooling can be used as a great tool, watchfully and thoughtfully, I think it can leave a student woefully behind if used in a vacuum.
I think the Christ illustration is a good one. We need to be led. God doesn't expect it all from us alone (He doesn't expect us to be passive either). To expect a child to blaze the entire trail alone without any guidance and come out level to a child who had some help and direction, is misguided.
I see what you're saying, Auben, and I agree, but even the radical unschoolers I have met don't leave their children completely to themselves. They are constantly providing their kids with the tools to learn what interests them, and introduce elements to round things out a bit. The parental presence in the area of academics is very subtle instead of being at the forefront. There is always an element of guidance to parenting, unless one is content to rear serial killers and bank robbers.
The same divide exists between those who don't understand homeschooling as exists between those who advocate more for traditional methods and can't quite grasp how unschooling could work. Isn't it sometimes frustrating to talk to someone who makes all kinds of weird assumptions about HSers "How do your kids make friends?" "How are you going to teach Calculus?" And no matter how much you explain they just look at you like you grew a third head?
I am not a radical unschooler, and probably wouldn't even be considered a true unschooler by a dedicated unschooler, but I do view my role as more of a learning coach than a teacher. I don't 'teach' my kids as much as I show them how to learn, and I use their interests and abilities to keep them engaged and progressing.
Just as 'homeschooling isn't for everyone', so 'unschooling isn't for every homeschooler'.
Edited to add- Link to an article at Christian Unschooling.
< Message edited by Sunnymom -- 11/11/2008 8:17:59 AM >
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RE: Unschooling - 11/11/2008 8:47:13 AM
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sen10tious
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quote:
the nebulous nature of Unschooling
No, think of a funnel. "Nebulous" describes only the wide rim at the top where all sorts of unformulated and loose things enter. It does not describe the clear stream that emerges at the bottom.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cindybode
What I'd love to see is interest-led learning right up there in people's minds as a valid choice [...] Sometimes I just get very, very tired of having to constantly defend my choice.
Yeah, trying to get a factory-trained mind to think outside the factory is rough. What the critics don't/can't see is that the real unschoolers are always "on," exploiting teachable moments 24/7 and seeing the world around them as a giant Exploratorium. Once the whistle blows or the bell rings, the factory-schoolers think they are done.
How many of you find it difficult to relax merely for the sake of entertainment? You might have the makings of an unschooler.
And if someone did talk you into going out for a movie, would you let yourself be entertained, or would you sit there analyzing the plot structure, considering if the costuming and setting truly complement each other, and evaluating the director's use of camera angles? You might have the soul of an unschooler.
And have others ever tried to kid you about being too geeky, but their teasing fell flat? You probably have an unschooler's spirit waiting to get out.
edited to correct a typo tired/tried
< Message edited by sen10tious -- 11/11/2008 8:55:14 AM >
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RE: Unschooling - 11/11/2008 9:03:41 AM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
How many of you find it difficult to relax merely for the sake of entertainment? You might have the makings of an unschooler.
And if someone did talk you into going out for a movie, would you let yourself be entertained, or would you sit there analyzing the plot structure, considering if the costuming and setting truly complement each other, and evaluating the director's use of camera angles? You might have the soul of an unschooler.
And have others ever tried to kid you about being too geeky, but their teasing fell flat? You probably have an unschooler's spirit waiting to get out.
That made me laugh, because we don't watch anything without totally taking it apart, analyzing the plot, noting when the script expects us to suspend disbelief, talking about objectionable elements (if there are any), and wondering how this or that effect was achieved.
I now make sure that when we get a DVD it has a section on how the movie was made, and we enjoy that as much or more than the movie itself.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/11/2008 9:10:39 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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quote:
And if someone did talk you into going out for a movie, would you let yourself be entertained, or would you sit there analyzing the plot structure, considering if the costuming and setting truly complement each other, and evaluating the director's use of camera angles?
But that IS entertainment!
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RE: Unschooling - 11/13/2008 7:49:14 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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I can watch a movie once and just get into it for the most part, but after that I just can't help it! AS hates watching movies with me sometimes. She never thinks about all those things. 
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RE: Unschooling - 11/28/2008 1:01:56 PM
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goodnsimple
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I had a very structured learning environment in public school and chose not to learn or retain much of value.
I could kick myself. Because when I found out that some of those things were handy...I had to go back and figure them out myself.
I unschooled after high school. I would get a library book, and end up reading everything on that shelf and that would suggest another topic and I would move to that shelf.
I also like the term interest led... that being said I told ds we are not doing dinosaurs. He can read and study about them all he wants...but I am not doing it. I am sick of dinosaurs...with two boys I have had enough. Other than that, I let him direct science. (we have done entemology and electricity and we are on Astronomy now.)
I require a certain amount of math.
He has asked for spelling...we are trying spelling power. (He is not great at spelling and doesn't want to "look dumb")
We tried dictation for two weeks...but that did not work well for us.
I am more of a relaxed homeschooler, as opposed to an unschooler. I don't think that he is ready for unschooling yet, although I am open to it. We are working on initiative.
The public school has I think beat it out of him.
Just TRY! I would rather you do something wrong, than not try because it may not be right. sigh.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/29/2008 5:01:02 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
That's part of deschooling- realizing that 1) textbooks are extremely redundant 2) it doesn't take 7 years to go from adding one digit numbers to Algebra 3) most of traditional school is spent in classroom management, not learning. You can get there in a matter of weeks. It does require building concept on concept, but it is a myth that an adequate education takes 12 years to accomplish.
I totally agree with this. Even though we are using a state curriculum.  Asrat started his first grade math in late september, and will finish it by the end of next week. There have been a few concepts where he needed extra practice, but we have barely touched his "enrichment and practice" book because it's, well...redundant is definately the right word. I anticipate second grade math will slow him down a little but I still think we probably won't need to waste much time on "enrichment".
I think child-directed learning would be my ideal. But honestly, I don't think *I'm* disciplined enough to make sure my children actually are learning, without some guidance and some deadlines and goals to look for. However, I have no problem tweaking what we use now so that my son reaches the indicated goal (completes test every 20 lessons) in a delighted way. And if he wants to learn about poodles (or architecture, or graphic design), I am totally open to doing a little learning on the side, or incorporating that into his regular lessons. We've been experimenting with different language learning stuff I recieved to review, substituting different phonics and spelling curricula for what's in his state curriculum, for me to see how they work, and for him to have a little change of pace.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/30/2008 1:42:37 AM
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cynthia
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Many unschoolers use curriculum. These days there are text books available to homeschoolers that are a lot different than the types of text books generally used in schools. Mystery of History, Story of the World, Christian Liberty Press Nature Readers... are all text books, but they are much different than the types of text books used in schools. They are written in a narrative style which is much more interesting and engaging to the student/reader.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/30/2008 7:50:50 AM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
Many unschoolers use curriculum.
Do they? I was under the impression that they didn't. The books you've listed are books that I thought regular homeschoolers used. We did unit studies growing up, and my mom tried unschooling for awhile but didn't like it.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/30/2008 10:53:25 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
Many unschoolers use curriculum.
Do they? I was under the impression that they didn't. The books you've listed are books that I thought regular homeschoolers used. We did unit studies growing up, and my mom tried unschooling for awhile but didn't like it.
I declare this post written waaaaay too early in the morning. Back to bed with you!
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RE: Unschooling - 11/30/2008 3:09:13 PM
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Ellie-Mae
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We have all sorts of College textbooks here. We certainly don't use the college curriculum as a class, but the kids love using the books to dig deeper into a subject that they are interested in. They even did a science course or two "just because".
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RE: Unschooling - 11/30/2008 9:51:21 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5147
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
Many unschoolers use curriculum.
Do they? I was under the impression that they didn't. The books you've listed are books that I thought regular homeschoolers used. We did unit studies growing up, and my mom tried unschooling for awhile but didn't like it.
I declare this post written waaaaay too early in the morning. Back to bed with you!
Lol! I guess that post was rather rambly. (Is rambly a word?)
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RE: Unschooling - 12/10/2008 9:45:58 AM
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Jeffery_G
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Unschooling is, in my opinion, getting carried away. You can be relaxed and still have a structure, but when people say they are "unschooling" their kids, they don't even realize what a true statement they are making. Un- meaning not, and -schooling meaning education. Therefore, unschooling: the opposite of education!
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RE: Unschooling - 12/10/2008 9:49:16 AM
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zoebob
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schooling does not equal education. Schooling equals sitting at a desk or table reading textbooks and filling out worksheets. It may also equal education but not necessarily
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RE: Unschooling - 12/10/2008 10:53:32 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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Schooling does not equal education. Schooling is just one way that is used to educate children. There are many ways to receive an education without schooling. Sometimes people can receive schooling and not get an education at all.
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RE: Unschooling - 12/11/2008 1:22:33 PM
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pbaribeault
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So, my daughter is 4, but I'm a long-range planner.
I have an elementary school that I want to send her to, but I'm strongly considering unschooling grades 7-12... but how does that effect graduation, diplomas, university entrance requirements etc.? If I need to adhere to a graduation-oriented structure anyways, it might be better to just start out with school-like structure from grade 7. Do you know anybody who has entered university or college without a diploma-and-transcript (after an unshooling experience)?
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