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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/14/2008 11:27:50 PM
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Dancre
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
For years, I have wondered about this three-fold question I pose;
1. What "draws" people to go to church first
The Holy Spirit.
2. Then what directs them to "which" church they choose to go to.
The Holy Spirit.
3. And what "keeps" them there.
The Holy Spirit.
Please, open for all to answer.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/14/2008 11:33:34 PM
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Dancre
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I'm going to butt into Liveloved's answer. :)
No, not programs or people of liked interest. It is the HS that directs you. Listen to His still small voice. He will direct you.
What?? What does color of skin have to do with churches?? God will lead you to the church HE wants you at, not where you think you should be. And Jesus said if two or more are in His presense, He is there. so yes, Jesus is in the AMA church and the Luthern church as long as they worship Him and not religion.
Nope, not programs or interests. It's ALL the Holy Ghost. He is your helper, guide, teacher. Trust in Him, not in programs, color of skin, or interests. If you go to church for skin color, programs or interests, then find a book club or a biking club. Church isn't a club, it's a place where people go to worship and learn about God. Stop trying to find a club, find God instead.
Edit: Sorry, but God's not into segregation. He puts people where they belong, period. So, yes, it is by the Holy Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
1. What "draws" people to go to church first The Holy Spirit Not programs or people of like interests?
2. Then what directs them to "which" church they choose to go to. The Holy Spirit Why do you suppose the Holy Spirit would not guide me to an all African American AME church, as well as a snowy white Lutheran church?Or are you saying the HS is in one, but not the other?
3. And what "keeps" them there. The Holy Spirit Not programs or people of like interests?
That would be great if it were a fact, as the Holy Spirit definitely should be our guide, but if that TRULY were to be the case, I should think there would be no segregation, don't you?
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/15/2008 7:39:38 AM
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floydette
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Dancre,
I agree with you. However, there are alot of things that draw us to a church that may "feel" like the Spirit of God, but are our subconscious responses. Can God work with that? Absolutely. I am just saying....
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/15/2008 10:09:12 PM
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jaggie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
For years, I have wondered about this three-fold question I pose;
1. What "draws" people to go to church first
2. Then what directs them to "which" church they choose to go to.
3. And what "keeps" them there.
Please, open for all to answer.
1. Every time I've returned to church after being away for a while, I just felt as if God was telling me to do it. The very first time, when I was 5 years old, I was asked to go by an adult friend of the family and I liked her so I went with her.
2. I was a member of a family that believed in God but didn't go to church. I started at a Christian church because that's where my family friend went. I then went on my own to Methodist churches. My first significant adult church (meaning that's where I actually started serving), I actually found on a billboard, then I happened to hear the pastor on the radio not long after that. The church I am at now ... my husband worked with one of the founding members about 10 years ago at a car dealership, and we eventually became neighbors. When I decided to return to church, I figured if the church was good enough for that founding member, it was good enough for me.
3. For me, the teaching has to be Biblically correct and has to "feel" right otherwise. At my first adult church, it felt good until they started asking us to put bonds on our houses to build a new building with a bookstore, coffee shop and radio studio. That didn't feel financially sound to me. Then not long after that, I got told by the music pastor's wife I had to wear makeup if I was going to sing in the choir. Nowhere in the Bible does it say I have to wear makeup to sing in the choir. Buh-bye. The church I am at now ... I fell in love with the music program and felt like I could make a contribution eventually. Someone heard me sing before I was ready but I went with it anyway and now I'm on the worship team. I also love the feel of the church. The head pastor is very much a regular guy who happens to be Biblically sound. I haven't met a snobby person yet and the ones who have views that differ from mine, well, they're very nice about it. I like that I can be who I am there and still be accepted. It's an awesome place and I'll keep going there as long as it feels like the right place or God tells me to go elsewhere.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/17/2008 10:59:01 AM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
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From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
What?? What does color of skin have to do with churches?? That was MY question. "If that TRULY were to be the case, if the Holy Spirit truly is your guide, I should think there would be no segregation, don't you?"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
Nope, not programs or interests. Sorry, but God's not into segregation. It's ALL the Holy Ghost. He puts people where they belong, period. Then WHY are there SO MANY churches that have ALL African-American members, or ALL white? Then WHY don't we have black baby Jesus' and white Marys & black angels & white wise men in our Nativity scenes?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
So, yes, it is by the Holy Spirit. I just don't see the end result even remotely suggesting this (but in rare cases) because of ALL of the obvious segregated churches.
I just feel that for us to blame personal biases, personal tastes, personal preferences or cultural differences on the Holy Spirit OR to say the Holy Spirit led this one but not that one is very dangerously playing God or humanizing the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/17/2008 2:51:48 PM
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doinkdom
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1. What "draws" people to go to church first
HOLY ANSWER: God
SINFUL ANSWER: Wanting to feel better about life in general.
2. Then what directs them to "which" church they choose to go to.
HOLY ANSWER: God, again. Personal influences.
SINFUL ANSWER: Whatever meets the needs of their consumer mindset...what can they get from church, rather than what God requires of them in worship or obedience.
3. And what "keeps" them there.
HOLY ANSWER: Sound doctrine and biblical fellowship.
SINFUL ANSWER: Continuance of them getting something just like a consumer. Many leave when sin is addressed or their felt needs are no longer catered to.
I prolly need to go confess and repent of some bitterness about this, huh? geez 
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/17/2008 3:17:36 PM
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DuckTalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
2. Then what directs them to "which" church they choose to go to.
HOLY ANSWER: God, again. Personal influences.
SINFUL ANSWER: Whatever meets the needs of their consumer mindset...what can they get from church, rather than what God requires of them in worship or obedience. This is where my quandary is. What is the difference between "Personal Influences" as mentioned in your HOLY ANSWER & "Whatever meets the needs of their consumer mindset" in your SINFUL ANSWER?
I'm thinking that perhaps pstrdebi did a fine job explaining it here.... http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/fb.aspx?m=3963535
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/17/2008 3:27:46 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
2. Then what directs them to "which" church they choose to go to.
HOLY ANSWER: God, again. Personal influences.
SINFUL ANSWER: Whatever meets the needs of their consumer mindset...what can they get from church, rather than what God requires of them in worship or obedience. This is where my quandary is. What is the difference between "Personal Influences" as mentioned in your HOLY ANSWER & "Whatever meets the needs of their consumer mindset" in your SINFUL ANSWER?
I'm thinking that perhaps pstrdebi did a fine job explaining it here.... http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/fb.aspx?m=3963535
Yes, consumer is all about comfort and what's safe. What can I get rather than what can I give. It's self-serving, not God-serving IMO, not a good reason.
Personal influences can be books/authors regarding specific doctrine, other Christians in their lives. It can also be about culture as I think was already touched upon.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/17/2008 3:36:13 PM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Yes, consumer is all about comfort and what's safe. What can I get rather than what can I give. It's self-serving, not God-serving IMO, not a good reason.
And yet, this is exactly what so often drives us to God in the first place. In our western culture, most people I know have come to God because they want something - like peace, or healing, a relationship, or eternal life, or a get-out-of-hell-free-card. Rarely in the west do people come to God because they are in awe of his power and greatness. (other cultures yes, ours - not so much)
Most come to God (initially) because of what they will get in return. Just look at step 4 in the 4 SL. What do you get? Peace with God. So, if we are attempting to "convert" people by telling them "what they get" for believing in Christ, how can we then be upset as they sit in churches looking for that very thing that was promised to them?
The hope is that folks mature past this point in their journey...
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/17/2008 8:13:45 PM
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dwain
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The Holy Spirit is a good answer for all three. The proper answer. Because
the true manifest Holy Spirit attracts non-believers and believers alike.
Keep in mind during the formation of the church in Christ time, You risked your life... So, the non-churched know now, the church will stand or fall, from within. Lots just look at the organized church and say, why should I pretend to be Holy. That is what the media has gotten us. Why should I be a hollywood actor? I can get morals from movie's, sure. The church is carrying the responsibility for "right" moral behaviour.
That becomes the problem if you don't crave the Holy Spirit. (the desire to love and be loved by God and neighbors) No one wants to make that determination for anyone else. The Holy Spirit leads you to self critique with the scriptures as the standard esp. Christ's admonition to seek His kingdom.
In the USA, there's quite of bit of freedom, AND subtle deception, and there is no real price to pay for church attendance. No paparazzi, no academy award, emmy, etc. The credits begin and end with Christ.
There is a church in the black neighborhood about 3 miles from the larger church where I attend, mostly white. If you condition yourself to be aware of the Holy Spirit and look for agreement, it is usually the smaller poorer
groups that bind the members (knit) them in love.
(just a thought)
The Holy Spirit annointing is attractive. It also convicts.
< Message edited by dwain -- 11/17/2008 11:35:15 PM >
_____________________________
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http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/18/2008 10:48:51 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Yes, consumer is all about comfort and what's safe. What can I get rather than what can I give. It's self-serving, not God-serving IMO, not a good reason.
And yet, this is exactly what so often drives us to God in the first place. In our western culture, most people I know have come to God because they want something - like peace, or healing, a relationship, or eternal life, or a get-out-of-hell-free-card. Rarely in the west do people come to God because they are in awe of his power and greatness. (other cultures yes, ours - not so much)
Most come to God (initially) because of what they will get in return. Just look at step 4 in the 4 SL. What do you get? Peace with God. So, if we are attempting to "convert" people by telling them "what they get" for believing in Christ, how can we then be upset as they sit in churches looking for that very thing that was promised to them?
The hope is that folks mature past this point in their journey...
Excellent reason why I don't use tracks, power point, etc.  God is not a celestial Santa Clause and telling someone only part of the gospel is a disservice to their spiritual growth and to a holy God.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/18/2008 10:53:49 AM
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floydette
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Though I wonder if, even if one tells the entire gospel - every nook and cranny of what can be expected (which, is probably impossible as God is simply too big to be fully contained in our explanation) do we even have the capability to understand it at the time of "conversion"? I suggest it is a progression of God revealing God to us - little by little as is seen fit.
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/18/2008 11:24:12 AM
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doinkdom
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My point is that there is a cost to being a Christ follower and we conveniently gloss over that so "we" are not rejected...forgetting that it is not about "us."
I'm not saying we need to pull Grudem's systematic theology but to treat the gospel as a grocery item on a shelf is wrong.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/18/2008 11:34:18 AM
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floydette
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Absolutely there is a cost. And, we often don't mention it. Most likely (as you ref) we want to get that notch in our belt,  Which, if salvation is a progression (working out our salvation, becoming more like Christ) then there is most likely no belt to notch.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/18/2008 1:33:21 PM
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doinkdom
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I had a friend who loved to give out tracts and preach at people tell me that they would "catch 'em" and then take the person to church and let the pator "clean 'em."
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/21/2008 9:51:44 PM
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Dan1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
I do know that God wants us to market for Him . We just refer to it as witnessing, so yes...then I believe He does care, VERY MUCH about that particular marketing plan. Problem is, a lot of churches market for self, not for God. Evidently you have seen this.
I see it everywhere. This attitude that says I will make a way for God. I will advance the Kingdom! I see that attitude as anti Christ. I know I sound harsh. It just seems like you may be more worried about the color of the donuts rather than the godly attitude of the congregants? I hope I am wrong about you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
Duck are you a good person??? No. There is only One who is truly good & I constantly strive to be as He is.
If you are striving what good can you do?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
Organized religion is usually led by man and if not led by sinful man then it will be knocked off track by sinful men and women. Yes, however if you are truly in the scripture, reading, seeking understanding, praying & applying it, then you will have read all those warnings God gave us against false religions, man made religions, religiosity, etc., particularly in I Corinthians and He clearly tells us how to deal with it. No where does He even remotely suggest that we sit back or walk away and passively allow sinful man to knock it off track.
True religion cannot be knocked off track
quote:
Are you giving up?
I can't give up, my Dad said I have this job to do here in this wretched world but He said He was going to call me home soon. So I am glad to stay here a little while and do what He said. Besides He's helping me do the job.
All in love my brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/24/2008 11:17:53 AM
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DuckTalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
I hope I am wrong about you. You are.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
If you are striving what good can you do? What would you have said had I of said, "Yes Dan. I am a good person"?
By definition, to be completely good is to be morally excellent; virtuous; righteous. As a human being, I do not see the possibility of being wholly & completely excellent on this side of heaven. However, it is my duty as a disciple of Christ's to continue striving. THAT is precisely how "I do good" things. But to describe me as "good" is innaccurate, but to describe certain actions of mine as good, then yes, that would be accurate.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
True religion cannot be knocked off track Religion CAN be knocked off track, but God cannot be.
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/24/2008 11:56:33 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
Then WHY are there SO MANY churches that have ALL African-American members, or ALL white?
When I invite blacks to our Church, if they respond in the negative the reasoning in nearly always the same.
They enfoy the music that is at a black Church, they enfoy the style of preaching that is at a black Church, and they do not feel comfortable about worshipping God in a different enviroment from what they are used to being in..
Is this wrong? I would not think so. We are instructed to worship God in apirit and in truthl and as long as we are doing that what is the problem?
I see the influencing reasons as ethnic and enviromental, not racist. I do believe that if we try to force the quota thingy in our faith; we miss the reason for Church in the first place. That reason is to;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
BTW our Church is multi-racial, with blacks, native americans, but mostly white; which is about the same as the demographics of our community.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/24/2008 3:33:37 PM
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DuckTalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Is this wrong? I would not think so. We are instructed to worship God in apirit and in truthl and as long as we are doing that what is the problem? As long as the worship is in spirit & in truth, I don't see where there would be one, but where is the line between spirit/ truth and legalism?
I, too "see the influencing reasons as ethnic and enviromental, not racist", but when one accuses a church of being disobedient to Christ in their manner of worship, then where does that fall in the relationship between the two (spirit/truth and legalism)?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
BTW our Church is multi-racial, with blacks, native americans, but mostly white; which is about the same as the demographics of our community. I suppose a church will not even form unless the demographics are checked first. I don't know of a case of "If you build it, they will come" with churches.
Perhaps that is where the Holy Spirit does in fact, do the primary leading....it makes no sense to build watering troughs for the horses where horses never trod any more than it makes sense to build a church that has a 2 hour hard rock musical before every sermonette in the Appalachian mountains, does it?
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/24/2008 6:01:04 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
As long as the worship is in spirit & in truth, I don't see where there would be one, but where is the line between spirit/ truth and legalism?
I, too "see the influencing reasons as ethnic and enviromental, not racist", but when one accuses a church of being disobedient to Christ in their manner of worship, then where does that fall in the relationship between the two (spirit/truth and legalism)?
I have been blessed to have ministered as a missionary in many cultures, and have a lot of experience in this area (Mexico, Central America, South America, Cambodia, Indoniesia on the Island of Timor, and many other cultures.
None of the worship in any of those places was a rubber stamp of any other, the same for style of teaching, or days, times and lengths of service
but they were all Worshipping in spirit and in truth.
I do nt know of anyone who has accused a Church of being dispbedient in the area of Worship. It all has to do with culture and personal history, and none of it is wrong as long as God is the object of true worship done in spirit and truth.
If folks are more comfortable with a certain type of music, preaching, and prayer; why in the world would one want to take them where they would be uncomfortable.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/25/2008 11:19:30 AM
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DuckTalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
If folks are more comfortable with a certain type of music, preaching, and prayer; why in the world would one want to take them where they would be uncomfortable.
Thanks
RC
I do agree with you in this, but somewhere in a galaxy of posts long long ago (and if I did not, I will now elaborate a little more), shortly after accepting Jesus into my life, I worshipped God in the best manner possible...with no other thought than to love Him and be loved by Him. The church that I chose to do this in was very, very, VERY wealthy. The reason for my choice of churches was the assistant pastor there happened to be the only clergy ever able to reach me on a spiritual level. Then, as I grew, my mind began to wander & wonder, ultimately arriving at the catalyst of confusion finding myself in a meeting asking why on earth we would be debating details of spending one & a quarter million dollars on a dining hall for the church when we could be ministering to the needy & the lost. When I posed that question to the board, an older woman (who did not recognize me as one of her high school students of 20 yrs. prior) looked over at me & said, "Oh, the virtue of being so simple-minded".
THIS is the starting point where my worshipping in church with no other thought than to love & be loved by Him became tainted. Since that day, I have searched for a church that worships in spirit & truth, but those that I have attended have all had this woman on their board, whether she be in the form of a man, a woman or whatever, she inevitabely seems to be in some form of leadership.
I have attempted to worship without being involved, but if you are a part of the church, you cannot help but to care & to contribute to the cause. I have even lowered my expectations to the point that I realized that I was lowering my standards.
It just seems to be an endless cycle & so far, they have all (about 14 churches thus far) been uncomfortable to me for this reason (politics-hypocrisy-radicalism-cultural differences, etc), so why would I want be somewhere I am uncomfortable? Yet, I love God, I love worshipping in spirit & in truth & I have somehow allowed myself to become entangled in this cyclic trap.
I now find far more truth & spirit outside of the church than within the doors. I still attend church because my husband refuses to not go, but that is not going to get me into heaven. For some reason, I just think it takes more, but it is not as simple as tolerating difference styles. It is so unjust to claim that because a true Christian should be more mature than to let style dampen their worship. Yet, I hear you say now that style is important. WHOSE may I ask? Just whose style?
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/25/2008 2:24:36 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
I do agree with you in this, but somewhere in a galaxy of posts long long ago (and if I did not, I will now elaborate a little more), shortly after accepting Jesus into my life, I worshipped God in the best manner possible...with no other thought than to love Him and be loved by Him. The church that I chose to do this in was very, very, VERY wealthy.
Well here is your sign; being very, very, VERY wealthy; does not necessarily indicate that God is involved.
Here is what indicates that God is involved;
(Mat 22:36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
(Mat 22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(Mat 22:38) This is the first and great commandment.
(Mat 22:39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
And;
(Joh 4:23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
And;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Those things, not wealth, are what separate the wheat from the tares.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/26/2008 9:35:40 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 11/25/2008 4:51:58 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
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From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Those thing, not wealth, are what separate the wheat from the tares.
Thanks
RC
Thanks
RC
I hear you and am certainly with you on that AND your list. Consider also, on the same token, financial prosperity does not mean one is neccessarily a tare either. I have also been in churches that could barely keep the doors open should one single tithe slack off and they had issues likewise. The difference being, money will keep the doors open, but poverty culls the herd.
As I said,
quote:
ORIGINAL: ducktalk
I now find far more truth & spirit outside of the church than within the doors. I still attend church because my husband refuses to not go, but that is not going to get me into heaven. For some reason, I just think it takes more, but it is not as simple as tolerating difference styles. It is so unjust to claim that because a true Christian should be more mature than to let style dampen their worship. Yet, I hear you say now that style is important. WHOSE may I ask? Just whose style?
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: WHY CHURCH? - 12/2/2008 5:36:11 PM
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brothers
Posts: 2
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
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unfortunately many churchs today are about no,s or bldgs also saving the person in another country or state when we should look at our neighbor which is in our church as well too many versions of the bible which some are of satan not GOD!!!!!! if we would look 2 GOD 4 guidance and listen 2 him then we truly would hear the cries of his people and there would be more LOVE as GOD would have instead of what the church would have AMEN!!!????[code]
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