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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 10:07:44 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
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rlj's post is typical. Very clever, very cute; but, dismissive largely due to complete ignorance of how the brain works. Yet, they think they are the bright ones. 
What they fail to understand is that there is a process to 'thinking'. And, specific areas of the brain have specific functions in determining what sticks and does not stick in our minds.
The brain is a PHYSICAL organ and it recieves stimuli in the form of light (seeing), sound (hearing), chemisty (tasting), and electrical (touch). We know that we can be fooled by what we see because we've seen enough magic shows to realize that a clever magician can make us THINK that an elephant has disappeared, when in reality scrims and lights are used to trick our minds. We also enjoy those visual tricks we sometimes see in books that ask us which line is longest, when they are both the same length, yet look different.
The reasons for this is that the visualization is run through various FILTERS before we make a judgement.
The same is true of ALL of our senses. The incoming stimuli is FILTERED and PROCESSED in a normal flow. The reason, for instance, that a teenager takes risk is that the PHYSICAL part of the brain that does this filtering is the LAST part of the brain to completely mature. It doesn't reach near maturity until at least 18 and continues to develope with experience.
Normally, this part of the brain acts as a gatekeeper. But, there are techniques to bypass that part of the brain. And, this is what hypnosis is all about. If you can embed thoughts into the brain by going AROUND the part of the brain that evaluates right/wrong, true/false then you can add a thought (Which is a PHYSICAL structure in the brain) that has structure and emotion; but, no sense of true or false attached to that emotion. Therefore, logic plays no part in altering that thought. It's just there.
Those who dismiss this, perhaps, see 'thinking' as something ethereal rather than physical and they certainly don't really understand the physical structure of the brain in any real sense. So, I just consider the source and continue to dig into the subject. It could be true or false. But, the stakes for Christians and our families are far too big to simply dismiss it out of hand. Better safe than sorry... as the Germans learned to their own destruction.
Thanks for your encouragement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
I appreciate you putting yourself out on the line to warn and inform people about what you see as a real danger. People always seem to dismiss things that they do not understand, sometimes at their peril. Everything deserves an honest inquiry, especially if it is something that we do not understand. To dismiss "out of hand" things we do not understand is foolish and dangerous.
The Bible tells us plainly that deceit will rule the day in the end times. The people will believe a lie. We need watchmen on the wall.
If you are correct we need to know. If not, no harm done.
Thank you!
Julien
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 10:14:02 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
If you are going to comment, at least be rational.
I have simply stated that it is possible that he is using Conversational Hypnosis and some form of NLP to win over people in a way that may not be ethical.
Tell us, is hypnosis used in ANY therapy by at least a PORTION of mainstream psychiatrists?
If so, why?
Now, it's important for me to mention my reservations about using hypnosis for ANY reason for a Christian. The reason being that it bypasses the normal truth-gate of the brain and inserts thoughts into the brain without any means of making value judgements on the thought.
OK, Mr. Rational, here is an article on NLP, delving into some of the irrational claims.
It seems that NLP develops models which can't be verified, from which it develops techniques which may have nothing to do with either the models or the sources of the models. NLP makes claims about thinking and perception which do not seem to be supported by neuroscience.
Suggestibility varies a great deal. Some people (Christians included) will believe anything. People become infatuated with public figures sometimes. during a period of infatuation, they hear and see only the positive. If you've ever had a crush on someone, you can relate. After the crush wears off you do the "What was I thinking?"
Again, I've been in the businees a long time and have seen "professionals" let themselves believe all kinds of foolishness. In therapy, some people get better with time alone, so you can use any approach. Some people spot the crazy therapies and run from it. The biggest factors in getting well are getting conservative treatment, which may include medicine and finding a therapist they can trust. The relationship with the therapist is the most critical factor.
< Message edited by cow451 -- 11/10/2008 10:22:14 AM >
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 10:14:15 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
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So why doesn't this happen more often? If Hitler did it so well why doesn't anyone else simply copy it?
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 10:48:50 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
Joined: 1/27/2007
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Well, at first glance that certainly looks useful for follow up. But, it will have to wait until I can read the entire thing, which would be later today and this evening.
Now we are getting somewhere. I want to look as seriously at these kinds of articles as I do at proponent's articles.
Thanks! This kind of give and take is what I can appreciate.
By the way, are you saying that you are a professional counselor?
Tom
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
If you are going to comment, at least be rational.
I have simply stated that it is possible that he is using Conversational Hypnosis and some form of NLP to win over people in a way that may not be ethical.
Tell us, is hypnosis used in ANY therapy by at least a PORTION of mainstream psychiatrists?
If so, why?
Now, it's important for me to mention my reservations about using hypnosis for ANY reason for a Christian. The reason being that it bypasses the normal truth-gate of the brain and inserts thoughts into the brain without any means of making value judgements on the thought.
OK, Mr. Rational, here is an article on NLP, delving into some of the irrational claims.
It seems that NLP develops models which can't be verified, from which it develops techniques which may have nothing to do with either the models or the sources of the models. NLP makes claims about thinking and perception which do not seem to be supported by neuroscience.
Suggestibility varies a great deal. Some people (Christians included) will believe anything. People become infatuated with public figures sometimes. during a period of infatuation, they hear and see only the positive. If you've ever had a crush on someone, you can relate. After the crush wears off you do the "What was I thinking?"
Again, I've been in the businees a long time and have seen "professionals" let themselves believe all kinds of foolishness. In therapy, some people get better with time alone, so you can use any approach. Some people spot the crazy therapies and run from it. The biggest factors in getting well are getting conservative treatment, which may include medicine and finding a therapist they can trust. The relationship with the therapist is the most critical factor.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 11:00:42 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
So why doesn't this happen more often? If Hitler did it so well why doesn't anyone else simply copy it?
That is a good question.
Hitler, I think, just stumbled on it by emulating Loyd George who just stumbled on it somehow. Others say that Winston Churchill also used similar speaking techniques.
One first has to believe that it works to put the effort into trying it. Someone claimed that one of Obama's speech writers had written on the subject of NLP.
What could be VERY interesting, if anything actually shows up in this kind of detail, is to see a brain activity scan of person being convinced via NLP methods of something that is complete nonsense. If the scan showed that the front part of the brain shuts down as it becomes overloaded by pacing and leading that would be very interesting.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 2:24:40 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
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quote:
Normally, this part of the brain acts as a gatekeeper. But, there are techniques to bypass that part of the brain. And, this is what hypnosis is all about. If you can embed thoughts into the brain by going AROUND the part of the brain that evaluates right/wrong, true/false then you can add a thought (Which is a PHYSICAL structure in the brain) that has structure and emotion; but, no sense of true or false attached to that emotion. Therefore, logic plays no part in altering that thought. It's just there.
That is a more liberal view of hypnosis than I have ever heard described. I kind of agree with what Cow said earlier about salesmanship being why Obama and Bill Clinton were so popular. This last election really wasn't that bad though that I would compare Obama's sway to Hitler's. The Electoral College was gruesome but percentages it was only 53% to 47% of the popular which is a more indicitave of the general populace than the electoral. (I have no problem with the EC but that's another thread)
quote:
What could be VERY interesting, if anything actually shows up in this kind of detail, is to see a brain activity scan of person being convinced via NLP methods of something that is complete nonsense. If the scan showed that the front part of the brain shuts down as it becomes overloaded by pacing and leading that would be very interesting.
Wouldn't one need scans of those hearing the same thing and not being convinced to compare it to? For example in the case of Obama some buy into it and some do not and some are kind of lukewarm. Why is it that some people are impacted and some aren't and some marginally?
On the subject of Hitler though I don't know that there was anyone before or will there be anyone again that can match his oratory skills. I've always considered his influence to have been supernatural not anything natural.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 3:58:06 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
Joined: 1/27/2007
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It may have to do with brain structure. For instance, in people with ADHD, the brain functions normally until it is faced with a difficult task. It then fails and some claim that brain activity scans show a decreased activity in specific areas of the brain. But, even here, where there is objective evidence to analyze, the experts differ.
New Type of Brain Scan for ADHD
Brain Scans as New Evidence (Look under the 'Structural Signs' section.)
Brain Scan Questionable
So, you see, it's difficult to get any concensus when it comes to the brain. But, brain scans appear to be closing the information gap and, perhaps, winning the argument. In any case, it's clear that there are differences in the scans at rest and scans under intense concentration in ADHD persons with or without treatment.
It's very interesting that in one of the videos that I posted, the street vendor did not accept the blank paper as real money. But, two other sales clerks did. So, I don't think anyone would claim that it's universally effective.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
Normally, this part of the brain acts as a gatekeeper. But, there are techniques to bypass that part of the brain. And, this is what hypnosis is all about. If you can embed thoughts into the brain by going AROUND the part of the brain that evaluates right/wrong, true/false then you can add a thought (Which is a PHYSICAL structure in the brain) that has structure and emotion; but, no sense of true or false attached to that emotion. Therefore, logic plays no part in altering that thought. It's just there.
That is a more liberal view of hypnosis than I have ever heard described. I kind of agree with what Cow said earlier about salesmanship being why Obama and Bill Clinton were so popular. This last election really wasn't that bad though that I would compare Obama's sway to Hitler's. The Electoral College was gruesome but percentages it was only 53% to 47% of the popular which is a more indicitave of the general populace than the electoral. (I have no problem with the EC but that's another thread)
quote:
What could be VERY interesting, if anything actually shows up in this kind of detail, is to see a brain activity scan of person being convinced via NLP methods of something that is complete nonsense. If the scan showed that the front part of the brain shuts down as it becomes overloaded by pacing and leading that would be very interesting.
Wouldn't one need scans of those hearing the same thing and not being convinced to compare it to? For example in the case of Obama some buy into it and some do not and some are kind of lukewarm. Why is it that some people are impacted and some aren't and some marginally?
On the subject of Hitler though I don't know that there was anyone before or will there be anyone again that can match his oratory skills. I've always considered his influence to have been supernatural not anything natural.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 4:35:08 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
OK, Mr. Rational, here is an article on NLP, delving into some of the irrational claims.
It seems that NLP develops models which can't be verified, from which it develops techniques which may have nothing to do with either the models or the sources of the models. NLP makes claims about thinking and perception which do not seem to be supported by neuroscience.
I've read the article in question and it was worth reading. But, I was disappointed to see that you've only posted a partial quote. Here is the whole thing:
quote:
It seems that NLP develops models which can't be verified, from which it develops techniques which may have nothing to do with either the models or the sources of the models. NLP makes claims about thinking and perception which do not seem to be supported by neuroscience. This is not to say that the techniques won't work. They may work and work quite well, but there is no way to know whether the claims behind their origin are valid. Perhaps it doesn't matter. NLP itself proclaims that it is pragmatic in its approach: what matters is whether it works. However, how do you measure the claim "NLP works"? I don't know and I don't think NLPers know, either. Anecdotes and testimonials seem to be the main measuring devices. Unfortunately, such a measurement may reveal only how well the trainers teach their clients to persuade others to enroll in more training sessions.
That was an unfortunately omission from a discussion point of view.
However, I think the major thrust of the article was that proposnents of NLP claim too much and seem to be after wealth as much as anything. And, that is born out by my wanderings around NLP web sites. It is, after all, rightly categorized as a New Age methodology. But, behind every error there is usually some truth.
When I began this quest, I was looking primarily at Conversational Hypnosis. NLP was a side issue and that is where it belongs. Most of the NLP books are 'Self Help' kinds of books. What we need to focus on is the 'Influencing Others' kind of hypnosis, which is a subset of NLP.
But, lets take a different look at the way our brains work and how that my give us a clue as to how the mind can be turned with words. Look, for instance, at James:
quote:
James 3-5
3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark.
How does the TONGUE TURN US? What is he trying to say?
It seems to me that talking, out loud, has a way of directing us in a particular direction. How is this? Perhaps, it is because, unlike thinking, speaking a thought creates a feedback loop to the brain via the ears and reinforces the idea in a way that simply THINKING it does not do. For this reason, when I was a teacher, I would NEVER let a child say something like, "I Hate my parents." out loud without INSTANTLY asking them to recant that verbalization with something like, "I love my parents; but, they make me SO angry sometimes." There is a BIG difference in the outcomes of repeating those two similar statements. As the Bible affirms, WORDS MEAN SOMETHING to the brain.
The image James is trying to onvey is that the words uttered by our tongues have the power to turn us left or right, good or bad. What is not said; but, I think is apparent is that it is through the EARS that this is worked out.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 9:17:55 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1366
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
What could be VERY interesting, if anything actually shows up in this kind of detail, is to see a brain activity scan of person being convinced via NLP methods of something that is complete nonsense. If the scan showed that the front part of the brain shuts down as it becomes overloaded by pacing and leading that would be very interesting.
ok, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this stuff really works. How do you know McCain didn't use the same technique to try to convince his voters? How do you know Ron Paul didn't? Maybe all politicians use it and the net effect balances each other out. Heck, if these techniques can compel people to believe something against their will, how do you know the beliefs you profess on this board aren't a result of McCains hypnosis? If this thing can really distort someone's perception, there is no reason for you to believe that your own perception hasn't been distorted by it. I suppose you can look at someone who did distort your perception and say, "Well, he doesn't appear to be using this technique because this technique requires such and such and he's not doing that" but you're making these evaluations with your potentially distorted perception. Maybe what you believe is complete nonsense but you don't know because you have been forced to believe it against your will. Or, maybe you did brainscan yourself, but if your perception is truly distorted, how are you to evaluate the results of that brain scan?
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/10/2008 10:29:42 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
Joined: 1/27/2007
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Are we drinking a bit too much coffee? That exhausted me just reading it! 
So, let's slow down a bit.
First, we have gotten FAR too far down the road. We need to step back a bit.
The first thing we need to do is to limit the discussion to Conversational Hypnosis. Then we need to decide IF hypnosis is possible and what are the characteristics of hypnosis. So far, we've not even discussed the nature of hypnosis. But, we now have enough, perhaps, to go there.
Hopefully, everyone has seen the videos. In these particular videos no one 'got sleepy'. They just got fooled or manipulated. In some of the videos, the manipulator did a lot of touching. But, was that true of all the videos?
I'm going to start with the assertion that, perhaps, hypnosis, for our purposes, is simply a state called a 'trance'. That trance allows others to insert ideas into our subconsciousness that we would normally not accept so easily. And, that trance need only be seconds in duration.
The kind of trance that I am talking about is something that happens to us quite often in the course of a day, such as driving and not remembering passing a certain landmark. You passed it; but, were in a trance like state when you passed it. If not a 'trance state' then what was it?
NOTE: My personal belief is that Christians should avoid hypnosis even for medical purposes since if it actually works, we would be putting ourselves in a vulnerable condition. These discussions are designed to WARN people of potential manipulation... not encourage experimentation.
I found this very interesting web site that explores the concept of 'trance' in a unique way. At the very least it broadens the definition of a trance. Again, I am NOT saying this site is correct. I'm just saying that it's interesting. I'm actually quite uncomfortable with linking to any of these sites because a great deal of perception is required to separate truth from error.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
What could be VERY interesting, if anything actually shows up in this kind of detail, is to see a brain activity scan of person being convinced via NLP methods of something that is complete nonsense. If the scan showed that the front part of the brain shuts down as it becomes overloaded by pacing and leading that would be very interesting.
ok, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this stuff really works. How do you know McCain didn't use the same technique to try to convince his voters? How do you know Ron Paul didn't? Maybe all politicians use it and the net effect balances each other out. Heck, if these techniques can compel people to believe something against their will, how do you know the beliefs you profess on this board aren't a result of McCains hypnosis? If this thing can really distort someone's perception, there is no reason for you to believe that your own perception hasn't been distorted by it. I suppose you can look at someone who did distort your perception and say, "Well, he doesn't appear to be using this technique because this technique requires such and such and he's not doing that" but you're making these evaluations with your potentially distorted perception. Maybe what you believe is complete nonsense but you don't know because you have been forced to believe it against your will. Or, maybe you did brainscan yourself, but if your perception is truly distorted, how are you to evaluate the results of that brain scan?
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/10/2008 11:28:15 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/12/2008 12:10:01 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
The kind of trance that I am talking about is something that happens to us quite often in the course of a day, such as driving and not remembering passing a certain landmark. You passed it; but, were in a trance like state when you passed it. If not a 'trance state' then what was it?
There is a certain part of the brain or function of the brain that when we look at something visually we simply ignore it and don't process it because we're engaged with something else. I am typing this and watching my screen so I am taking no notice of the coffee cup, box of tissues or the paper plate that needs thrown away on my desk. They're there, they are in my peripheral vision but I'm not taking any notice of them. I'm not in a trance as I write this my brain is simply filtering them out. I believe I once read that Sherlock Holmes was of a type who could not do this and it greatly increased his abilities to solve crime because he would see things that most others would simply skip over or would get missed because they weren't in the ordinary line of police work.
As for the definition of hypnosis I do not have one. I don't however believe that it is something that can happen to someone during the course of a conversation or listening to a speaker speak at a rally. I don't believe it can happen involuntarily except if someone is trying to do it and being very deceptive about. One reason I don't believe politicians are doing it is the people who they are having the most influence on are the people who want to be believe what is said. There are people who believe in Obama and nothing will change that just like there are people who want to believe in Dubya and nothing will change that. As for the rest those people sided with O and I don't believe it was any paranormal or psycho (not insane but mental) type influence that would commonly go undetectable.
Hitler was perhaps an exception to this. He did have a message that the German people wanted to hear. He also had an uncanny ability and I would say supernatural ability to influence people one on one, in small groups and to the nation at large. Many are testimonies of those who dealt with Hitler who would go to him with an idea contrary to him, talk to him, change their minds leave and do what Hitler said and would suddenly realize that "hey, this isn't what I wanted at all, why did I do that?" When he couldn't influence someone he would have them removed.
Rasputin would be another who was like this but I am not convinced remotely that Obama is one of these. I'm not sure I would call either hypnotic but I would call them supernatural.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/12/2008 7:42:32 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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You are correct in some of what you say and a little too dogmatic in others.
But, it is clear that it makes no sense to say that Obama is Conversational Hypnosis and that it's working, if we don't first establish that it does, indeed, work!
Videos are fun to watch, as people take blank paper for actual money. But, they are too easily faked to rely on.
Learning to do it ourselves is an option; but, that delves into a realm in which I'm not comfortable pursuing.
So, how DO we establish that the topic in and of itself is real? That's the primary thing we have to establish. It seems to me that establishing the reality of Conversational Hypnosis must lie in the medical and clinical applications and peer reviewed writings. But, how to find those is the first hurdle.
We know that some psychiatrists are using hypnosis in their practice and also some dentists. Are the just the quacks in the field or in the mainstream in their field. That, I think, is the place to start.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
The kind of trance that I am talking about is something that happens to us quite often in the course of a day, such as driving and not remembering passing a certain landmark. You passed it; but, were in a trance like state when you passed it. If not a 'trance state' then what was it?
There is a certain part of the brain or function of the brain that when we look at something visually we simply ignore it and don't process it because we're engaged with something else. I am typing this and watching my screen so I am taking no notice of the coffee cup, box of tissues or the paper plate that needs thrown away on my desk. They're there, they are in my peripheral vision but I'm not taking any notice of them. I'm not in a trance as I write this my brain is simply filtering them out. I believe I once read that Sherlock Holmes was of a type who could not do this and it greatly increased his abilities to solve crime because he would see things that most others would simply skip over or would get missed because they weren't in the ordinary line of police work.
As for the definition of hypnosis I do not have one. I don't however believe that it is something that can happen to someone during the course of a conversation or listening to a speaker speak at a rally. I don't believe it can happen involuntarily except if someone is trying to do it and being very deceptive about. One reason I don't believe politicians are doing it is the people who they are having the most influence on are the people who want to be believe what is said. There are people who believe in Obama and nothing will change that just like there are people who want to believe in Dubya and nothing will change that. As for the rest those people sided with O and I don't believe it was any paranormal or psycho (not insane but mental) type influence that would commonly go undetectable.
Hitler was perhaps an exception to this. He did have a message that the German people wanted to hear. He also had an uncanny ability and I would say supernatural ability to influence people one on one, in small groups and to the nation at large. Many are testimonies of those who dealt with Hitler who would go to him with an idea contrary to him, talk to him, change their minds leave and do what Hitler said and would suddenly realize that "hey, this isn't what I wanted at all, why did I do that?" When he couldn't influence someone he would have them removed.
Rasputin would be another who was like this but I am not convinced remotely that Obama is one of these. I'm not sure I would call either hypnotic but I would call them supernatural.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/12/2008 10:23:34 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
Joined: 1/27/2007
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In an effort to determine if it is actually possible to hypnotize someone and, if so, to determine how easily it might be done, I've decided to look at the area of dentistry. It's something that we can all relate to because, quite frankly, it hurts.
So, can we find dentists that are using hypnosis and if so, is it effective.
The first thing I ran across was a story about a dentist in the UK that invested more than $370,000.00 for a new dental practice in order to use hypnosis. This clearly indicates his seriousness. He mentions that he learned his technigue from a Paul McKenna.
Looking up Paul McKenna, I found that he has a TV program in the UK and that there were videos of his work in a clinical type of setting. In this program, he works with a medical doctor that had a fear of needles, a man with Tourrette Syndrome and a woman that is obsessed with a former lover. The interesting thing about this video is that you cannot determine exactly how he performs his hypnosis. But, clearly the people think that something big has happened in their life.
Following this I found two videos that directly address the use of hypnosis in dentistry. The first is a Discovery Channel program and the second, where a woman has two teeth completely removed, is from BBC2. Both are documentaries about individual dentists.
Again, I do not endorse or condone any form of hypnosism. But, unfortunately, we have to delve into delicate things to truly determine if Conversational Hypnosis exists and might be used on the citizens of our nation.
One of the clear dangers is that people who have no business knowing anything about this topic can buy training programs online. This next video demonstrates WHY that knowledge is NOT a good thing. Here a teenager is using what he's learned on a fellow teenager. I wonder how widely this kind of experimentation might be among teens and college students? I found it very troubling.
It gets worse. There is even society dedicated to teens learning and using hypnosis.
Sometimes, when you do research, you might like like what you find. This is definitely the case with the idea that teens are learning hypnosis with the help of adults. From their videos, it's obvious that they have no idea of the potential danger.
Here is the association's site.
And, here is a blog by a self-proclaimed teenage Professional Hypnotist.
This is what makes it so diffucult for a Christian to study this stuff. You learn disturbing things. The mind is too complex to treat it as a toy.
Some of those in the hypnosism field feel the very same way. Here are two sites that speak of the dangers of of 'Stage Hypnotism'.
The first is by a former stage hypnotist that has written a book on the subject.
This next one is a doctoral thesis examining the death of a young woman that had been to a stage hypnotist show. Interestingly, it's by an Austrailian Clinical Hypnotherapist.
All this actually bolsters the idea that some people are able to hypnotically control others... for good or ill.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 11/12/2008 11:21:15 PM >
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Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/13/2008 10:32:03 PM
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lightshineon
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I belive you, and I believe that he the anti-christ.
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/14/2008 10:36:14 AM
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TMeeks
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The Bible tells us that in the last days many will be seen as the messiah. And, in a sense, each of these false messiahs will be anti-Christ. But, the evil one spoken of in Revelation will probably not come from the United States and there are many things that must be set in motion for the true Anti-Christ to appear.
But, I do think that we are seeing the beginning of a period of post-Christian turmoil where those who have rejected Christ as a solution in their lives will be turning to all the wrong places for their comfort and salvation. This will make the whole world susceptible to things like hypnotic, charismatic leaders who assume the role of God in the lives of many people.
My purpose in these threads is to simply examine if mass hypnosis is possible and to see if leaders are experimenting, effectively, with it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I belive you, and I believe that he the anti-christ.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/14/2008 11:41:46 PM
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Isaiah29
Posts: 118
Joined: 5/8/2005
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But, I do think that we are seeing the beginning of a period of post-Christian turmoil where those who have rejected Christ as a solution in their lives will be turning to all the wrong places for their comfort and salvation. This will make the whole world susceptible to things like hypnotic, charismatic leaders who assume the role of God in the lives of many people.
Greetings TMeeks,
I have followed this thread with considerable interest, not just because of the valid concerns you have raised regarding Obama's methodology of public speaking, but also because of the obstinate refusal of some to even consider that Obama would actually be using rhetorical techniques to mesmerize his audience the way Hitler did. I guess the fact that Obama symbolically spoke to over 200,000 Germans at the Siegessäule, Hitler's Victory Column, which had been moved to its current location in Berlin by Hitler to commemorate Berlin's ascendency as the the capital of the world and the Third Reich's ascendency as the world's ruling party, is completely lost on them. Oh well, those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them. Nevertheless, your statement that those who have rejected Christ will be "turning to all the wrong places" is well taken, for Paul prophesied as much:
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2Tim: 4:3-4
Many people are hoping that Obama will fix their broken lives, or "broken souls" as Michelle Obama put it. In a sence she was right. Those who don't know Jesus do have broken souls. Where she erred was in ascribing Obama the ability to fix those souls. Obama can no more fix a broken soul than a frog can turn into a prince, but the gullible and the blind will still believe that he can, because they so desparately need him to.
While some are simply hitching a ride on the gravy train, and some are hoping to control him, still others are clinging to Obama like a life raft in troubled seas, only in this case the life raft is actually an anchor which will draw them further under. These are the ones to watch out for, the ones with an emotional, if not a spiritual, investment in him; for when Obama is questioned or criticized, they respond with hostility, anger, and sometimes apoplectic rage. They will be his torch bearers, the perfect candidates for his "civilian security force", goon squads silencing all dissent in Obama's new world order, for there can be no dissent, there can be only ONE!
I for one do not believe Obama is the anti-Christ. I think he is simply the current spokesperson for the new world order, and he is certainly working their agenda, but the parallels to Hitler are uncanny and bear watching closely. If ever there was a time to remain vigilant, now is the time. Here are a couple of excellent articles which explore those parallels in detail. One is: "Somehing is happening of historic proportions (and it is not pretty)" found at:
http://slatts.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-something-of-historic-proportion.html
(and also at:)
http://israelinsider.ning.com/forum/topics/something-is-happening-of
and the other is: "Understanding Obama: The Making of a Fuehrer" by Ali Sima found at:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html
(and also at:)
http://clintondems.com/2008/11/understanding-obama-the-making-of-a-fuehrer/
I urge you and anyone else who cares about our future to read both articles.
In Christ,
Ariel
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RE: NLP - This is so astounding - 11/15/2008 11:37:58 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1936
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Ariel, this is the most most important and informative post in this thread. Thank you so much for your comments and your links. They are not only fascinating; but, they should not be ignored by either those who do and those who don't trust Obama with our futures.
I would urge ALL of those that are enamoured by Obama to read the articles to which you linked. They are long and academic; but, they are also critical in urging some caution and awareness. Moreover, I'm adding a link to yours that were linked to inside the document on FaithFreedom.org by Ali Sina.
Barack Obama appears to be a narcissist.
This link is extremely important and discusses the nature of narcissism. Here, for instance, is an interesting observation.
quote:
Many complain of the incredible deceptive powers of the narcissist. They find themselves involved with narcissists (emotionally, in business, or otherwise) before they have a chance to discover their true character. Shocked by the later revelation, they mourn their inability to separate from the narcissist and their gullibility.
There is far too much evidence to include here. But, I urge everyone to take the time to read the link above.
It takes time to follow all the links and read all the articles. But, NOT to take the time, no matter what one believes about Obama, would be a huge failure to do 'Due Diligence' for your life, you children's lives, your grandchildren's lives and your country's future.
Thanks again, Ariel. A very, very important contribution to our understanding of Obama. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Isaiah29
....
I for one do not believe Obama is the anti-Christ. I think he is simply the current spokesperson for the new world order, and he is certainly working their agenda, but the parallels to Hitler are uncanny and bear watching closely. If ever there was a time to remain vigilant, now is the time. Here are a couple of excellent articles which explore those parallels in detail. One is: "Somehing is happening of historic proportions (and it is not pretty)" found at:
http://slatts.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-something-of-historic-proportion.html
(and also at:)
http://israelinsider.ning.com/forum/topics/something-is-happening-of
and the other is: "Understanding Obama: The Making of a Fuehrer" by Ali Sima found at:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html
(and also at:)
http://clintondems.com/2008/11/understanding-obama-the-making-of-a-fuehrer/
I urge you and anyone else who cares about our future to read both articles.
In Christ,
Ariel
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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I'll get back to reading some of the others later on. 