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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 10:14:48 PM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
Americans killed millions of Africans during the slave trade. They were more like Joseph Stalin.
I don't believe that number or even close to it. Prove it.
It would be extremely stupid for a slave trader to kill his "cargo". They may have been cruel but I have strong doubts that they were that stupid.
Many Africans died in transport to America and they through them overboard. To increase profits they loaded more Africans in the same space and they had a greater net survivor rate. Millions died over the slave trade years. You can look it up for yourself or take a class in Afro-American history.
Here, go to this website. Scroll down. It says 1 to 2 million died during the slave trade years.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr4.html
or searh on African slave trade to America how may died. Africans in America Part 1 Slave trade
< Message edited by chaplainwinston -- 11/18/2008 10:26:36 PM >
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 10:22:37 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
Americans killed millions of Africans during the slave trade. They were more like Joseph Stalin.
I don't believe that number or even close to it. Prove it.
It would be extremely stupid for a slave trader to kill his "cargo". They may have been cruel but I have strong doubts that they were that stupid.
Many Africans died in transport to America and they through them overboard. To increase profits they loaded more Africans in the same space and they had a greater net survivor rate. Millions died over the slave trade years. You can look it up for yourself or take a class in Afro-American history.
I don't doubt that many Africans died. The conditions onboard were unimaginable, I'm sure. It is only the magnitude of the numbers that I doubt.
But the word you used originally was "killed". Now you say "died". The word "killed" implies that someone intentionally ended another's life. What I took exception with, was your characterization of a slave-trader as someone who would destroy his own livelihood. That would be stupid and I doubt very seriously that "killing" took place to any great degree. I AM NOT saying that slaves did not die in great numbers because of the deplorable conditions they were forced into.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 10:31:15 PM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
I don't doubt that many Africans died. The conditions onboard were unimaginable, I'm sure. It is only the magnitude of the numbers that I doubt.
But the word you used originally was "killed". Now you say "died". The word "killed" implies that someone intentionally ended another's life. What I took exception with, was your characterization of a slave-trader as someone who would destroy his own livelihood. That would be stupid and I doubt very seriously that "killing" took place to any great degree. I AM NOT saying that slaves did not die in great numbers because of the deplorable conditions they were forced into.
Accoring to our current laws if you kidnap someone and they die it is considered murder. You killed them. They would not have died otherwise in like manner. See how some people are in denial and non-repentant even today? Another post suggested White America has made great strides in the last 40 years. There is still a long ways to go.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 10:53:19 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
quote:
I don't doubt that many Africans died. The conditions onboard were unimaginable, I'm sure. It is only the magnitude of the numbers that I doubt.
But the word you used originally was "killed". Now you say "died". The word "killed" implies that someone intentionally ended another's life. What I took exception with, was your characterization of a slave-trader as someone who would destroy his own livelihood. That would be stupid and I doubt very seriously that "killing" took place to any great degree. I AM NOT saying that slaves did not die in great numbers because of the deplorable conditions they were forced into.
Accoring to our current laws if you kidnap someone and they die it is considered murder. You killed them. They would not have died otherwise in like manner. See how some people are in denial and non-repentant even today? Would you care to explain that? quote:
Another post suggested White America has made great strides in the last 40 years. There is still a long ways to go.
Nice try.
The problem is that you are mixing time and cultural contexts. First of all, you are correct that in America today, if you kidnap someone and they die because of that abduction it is murder. Realize also that the word "murder" is a legal term.
Secondly, the discussion we were having (I thought) was about the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Now, I mean no offense to you or anyone else. Slavery was a terrible part of our national history. But the plain and simple fact of greed would keep a slave-trader from intentionally "killing" any of his human cargo. I agree that the greed made the slave ship designers to design the hold to carry the "cargo" stacked in such a way that would maximize the number of slaves in the hold. Unfortunately disease, injuries, and infections would flourish in such tight spaces and many would get sick and die. Those deaths were regrettable even to the slave traders at least for the loss of profit if not the loss of human life.
Finally, in that time period and in that cultural context, deaths occurring due to the abduction of slaves was not murder.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 10:58:47 PM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
Finally, in that time period and in that cultural context, deaths occurring due to the abduction of slaves was not murder.
Back to the Bible. Read the ten commandments. Thou shalt not murder.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 11:02:20 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
quote:
Finally, in that time period and in that cultural context, deaths occurring due to the abduction of slaves was not murder.
Back to the Bible. Read the ten commandments. Thou shalt not murder.
I have read it many, many times. Although I am getting rather old and my memory fails me at times... could you please give me the reference which says that a slave who gets sick and dies while in a master's custody is murder?
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 11:08:00 PM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
Seems like the definition of "change" is... changing?
This method of redefining words I would expect of the Clinton administration... oh yeah, almost forgot!
What about gay, alternative, marriage, love, Church, Christian, gender, natural vs unnatural.
Change:
transitive verb
1 a : to make different in some particular : ALTER *never bothered to change the will* b : to make radically different : TRANSFORM *can't change human nature* c : to give a different position, course, or direction to
2 a : to replace with another *let's change the subject* b : to make a shift from one to another : SWITCH *always changes sides in an argument*
synonyms CHANGE, ALTER, VARY, MODIFY mean to make or become different. CHANGE implies making either an essential difference often amounting to a loss of original identity or a substitution of one thing for another *changed the shirt for a larger size*. ALTER implies a difference in some particular respect without suggesting loss of identity *slightly altered the original design*. VARY stresses a breaking away from sameness, duplication, or exact repetition *vary your daily routine*. MODIFY suggests a difference that limits, restricts, or adapts to a new purpose *modified the building for use by the disabled*
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 11:14:26 PM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
He is not repentant. He said on 9/11 that he wished they could have done more than they did. He just changed his subversive tactics by becoming a college professor.
Jesus rebukes them by the parable of the two sons
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.
Matt 21:28-31 (KJV)
Repenting is not saying the right thing but doing the right thing.
Lets give Obama a chance to do the right thing. Why judge him before he even becomes President. If he does wrong I will admit it. Just like I pointed out some faults of President Bush.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/18/2008 11:15:11 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
quote:
Seems like the definition of "change" is... changing?
This method of redefining words I would expect of the Clinton administration... oh yeah, almost forgot!
What about gay, alternative, marriage, love, Church, Christian, gender, natural vs unnatural.
Change:
transitive verb
1 a : to make different in some particular : ALTER *never bothered to change the will* b : to make radically different : TRANSFORM *can't change human nature* c : to give a different position, course, or direction to
2 a : to replace with another *let's change the subject* b : to make a shift from one to another : SWITCH *always changes sides in an argument*
synonyms CHANGE, ALTER, VARY, MODIFY mean to make or become different. CHANGE implies making either an essential difference often amounting to a loss of original identity or a substitution of one thing for another *changed the shirt for a larger size*. ALTER implies a difference in some particular respect without suggesting loss of identity *slightly altered the original design*. VARY stresses a breaking away from sameness, duplication, or exact repetition *vary your daily routine*. MODIFY suggests a difference that limits, restricts, or adapts to a new purpose *modified the building for use by the disabled*
I think I get it.
Change for Obama is like a class reunion - when all the same old friends (former Clinton aides) get together and see how fat, grey, and bald everyone has become.
I don't know but I thought the people who supported him wanted real change. Meaning NEW people with NEW ideas and NEW policies.
I still say y'all have been had.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 1:40:40 AM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
quote:
Finally, in that time period and in that cultural context, deaths occurring due to the abduction of slaves was not murder.
Back to the Bible. Read the ten commandments. Thou shalt not murder.
I have read it many, many times. Although I am getting rather old and my memory fails me at times... could you please give me the reference which says that a slave who gets sick and dies while in a master's custody is murder?
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Eph 6:5-9 (KJV)
The ten commandments are in the O.T. as well. What makes you think it was not murder? They did not die of natural causes or desease in the land. The conditions on the slave trading ships were not conducive to good health and optimal survival conditions. They expected many would die. They murdered them. They were even murdered on the plantations intentionally and because of conditons they were forced to live under. The Bible does not support Slavery as it was taught until they were were set free in America, but it tells slaves and masters how they are to treat each other if they find themselves in that predicament. Some Africans did not want to be slaves and jumped ship commiting suicide.
Some of the Hebrew people were killed before they were captured, but the captives were kept alive on the way to Syria and while they were there. They had community, religion and their own language. Why were Americans so harse towards Africans?
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 1:53:07 AM
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crownlaurel
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If you wish to compare Obama to Joseph, please consider Joseph's people's future? God did place Joseph in a position of leadership (he was not a political figure...he never had ambitions, only followed God's guidance) and for the time, Joseph's wisdom saved both Egypt and Joseph's people. However, Joseph's presence in the Egyptian government led to a much more significant period of history. It led them directly into slavery to the Egyptian government.
Socialist agenda leads to a "type" of slavery and escape is not easy. Spreading the wealth and causing more people to rely on the government for their wellbeing leads to government rule in their lives. Joseph did not liberate his people. God liberated and raised up Joseph in order to bring about a period of punishment for His people who had turned their backs to Him. Joseph's own brothers sold him into slavery and by his saving them and providing for them, he led their descendants into slavery. Obama may be leading our nation into a period of judgement. We may have set ourselves up for failure in Iraq by pulling out too soon (I did not ask for nor want the war in Iraq, but pulling out would be disastrous). There is no evidence that Obama's economic policies will be a miracle drug for the economy and higher taxes on businesses will more likely have a negative effect on average workers. We will find more people on welfare and with mandated universal healthcare, doctors will have even less say in patient's treatment than they currently do as not only insurance companies who already try to dictate who gets what treatment, Uncle Sam will have his say now too. Under the education proposals he has, the government will take control of our children at age 3 instead of state determined minimum ages and education will be federalized to an even greater degree. Actually, most government functions will be federalized and states will have less and less autonomy.
Our representative republic, not democracy, has been what has made this nation so strong for so long. When that is removed, our strength will diminish.
On another note, Chaplain, you have pointed out that African Americans are one ethnic group that identify themselves as one group. Do you understand that "white" is NOT one ethnic group and has been grouped so by arbitrary designation? We are not from the same culture, geographical area or even the same language group originally and are only classified arbitrarily by our skin color. Most Latinos are classified as "white" on police reports and several government questionaires. My husband is 100% Maya, but his "race" is marked as "white, hispanic origin" of which he is neither. When the option is available I identify myself as mixed race or multi cultural, but more often than not, anyone else who looks at me will call me white. I am not Anglo nor is my family from anywhere near Caucasus. My blood line includes Creek and Cherokee and two lines of Irish, one line that began with two poor Irish Baptist ministers in 1810. My skin is pale. My heart is red. To hold all "whites" accountable for actions against Blacks is to assume that whites identify themselves by the same criteria that African Americans do, as one ethnic group. That is simply not the case.
Interestingly enough, the dictionary defines the term Caucasian as quote:
of, constituting, or characteristic of a race of humankind native to Europe, North Africa, and southwest Asia and classified according to physical features (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Caucasian)
< Message edited by crownlaurel -- 11/19/2008 2:01:48 AM >
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 2:16:12 AM
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crownlaurel
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quote:
Some of the Hebrew people were killed before they were captured, but the captives were kept alive on the way to Syria and while they were there. They had community, religion and their own language. Why were Americans so harse towards Africans?
You seem to disregard the Pharoah's order to hunt and kill all male children under the age of 2. And Egypt was only one case of Jewish slavery.
Americans who were harsh toward Africans were evil greedy people, that's why. But we are not all descendants of slave owners and we are not all the same ethnic group or culture. The sheer characteristic of having light skin does not make us guilty of crimes other people committed in the past.
How can you claim that Ayers becoming a professor is repentance by action but you hold that those of us who have light skin are guilty of centuries and generations of injustice no matter how we live our lives today?
And just to be clear, I live in the south. I have seen and experienced racism and discrimination and have been disgusted with the things I have experienced and done whatever I could to fight for God's compassion and love. I do not believe that racism no longer exists nor do I believe Obama will erase it. I believe that the only place to eradicate prejudice and injustice is in the hearts of the people, not in the laws of congress or the redistribution of wealth.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 2:46:29 AM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
How can you claim that Ayers becoming a professor is repentance by action but you hold that those of us who have light skin are guilty of centuries and generations of injustice no matter how we live our lives today?
Sin is something idividuals do. Each of us is accountable to God. We can't blame anyone else whether it be politians, Church leaders, or other people. The most an individual can hope to be is pleasing in Gods sight. I did not mean to include all light skin people. History show the good works all ethnic groups have done. There is still much more we all can do. But you know as well as I do things will not perfect until Jesus returns and reigns, and the is no more evil having been cast into the Lake of Fire. As Christians we are being perfected. We won't always get it right. If it were not for slavery I would not be here, and I love my country. That is the dicotomy and how ironic can you get!
Gods works are a mystery. And I repeat, all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. He can turn bad into good. Christians are blessed of the Lord. Jesus died for us and took upon himself our punishment for sin. God is not through with us yet.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 2:53:33 AM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
Our representative republic, not democracy, has been what has made this nation so strong for so long. When that is removed, our strength will diminish.
Here is something you may not know. Years ago corporations were given human rights, and they exceed ours in the work place (e.g. random drug testing, fired with no reason, fired because their health benefit costs will go up and from what I understand now corporations cancel your medical insurance now when you retire and you have to go on Medicare. Bush ok'd it).
That's our representative republic. It constantly changes.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 5:02:43 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
Years ago corporations were given human rights, and they exceed ours in the work place
they were not given human rights. You have a very warped view of the world.
quote:
(e.g. random drug testing,
should they drug test cops with guns, bus drivers, aircraft mechanics, the operator watching a process which is potentially explosive, or fighter pilots?
quote:
fired with no reason,
No one has a right to work at company X and the owner/manager there has to do what is best for the company. You want to see inefficiency make us beholden to a system like france has where it is hard to fire even underperformers.
quote:
fired because their health benefit costs will go up
A business has to be profittable or it will cease to be and then all employees lose. If health care costs rise too much it is necessary to let some employees go so that others can remain at work or riske everyone losing their job when the company goes belly up.
quote:
and from what I understand now corporations cancel your medical insurance now when you retire and you have to go on Medicare. Bush ok'd it).
Please show me where Bush ok'd this. Even so, a company is not required to provide retiree medical benefits to it's employees and many can no longer afford to do so. Why is it so hard for those of you who want it all to understand that it has to come from somewhere and if you empty that somewhere then not only do you not get your free health care for life you don't get anything.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 12:34:03 PM
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Lapidoth
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I think this thread has come full circle with no real point to it.
Seems to be a one-thread agenda.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 3:50:36 PM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
Even so, a company is not required to provide retiree medical benefits to it's employees and many can no longer afford to do so. Why is it so hard for those of you who want it all to understand that it has to come from somewhere and if you empty that somewhere then not only do you not get your free health care for life you don't get anything.
It is just sad. My dad bought his house for $5,000, a two bedroom. The lot was big enough to add a third. He worked for 30 years and got full retirement and health insurance. I feel sorry for my kids and grandkids. Companies used to be loyal to thier employees. Now they just expect loyalty from employees. They say we do not have a right to be employed (PBS). It was like that for my dad's generation. We used to get unemolyment benefits for a year even when you were fired. Now you have to be laid off which is at the companies discretion. They pay into unemployment insurance so they keep that money if they fire you.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 4:49:43 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
quote:
Even so, a company is not required to provide retiree medical benefits to it's employees and many can no longer afford to do so. Why is it so hard for those of you who want it all to understand that it has to come from somewhere and if you empty that somewhere then not only do you not get your free health care for life you don't get anything.
It is just sad. My dad bought his house for $5,000, a two bedroom. The lot was big enough to add a third. He worked for 30 years and got full retirement and health insurance. I feel sorry for my kids and grandkids. Companies used to be loyal to thier employees. Now they just expect loyalty from employees. They say we do not have a right to be employed (PBS). It was like that for my dad's generation. We used to get unemolyment benefits for a year even when you were fired. Now you have to be laid off which is at the companies discretion. They pay into unemployment insurance so they keep that money if they fire you.
When your dad worked for companies the majority of people took pride in a job well done and showed loyalty to their employers and in return the companies gave loyalty back to their employees. I don't know of anywhere that anyone was ever able to get unemployment for being fired, well not if they were fired for reason. Even to this day if a person is fired it is the companies responsibility to show cause for firing if they are attempting to deny the exemployee umemployment. I have managed employees in a couple of different industries prior to becoming and engineer and i can tell you that many people today don't have the same work ethic that our parents and grandparents had. They want more pay, more benefits, more security regardless of performance, and they want to do less for it. While yes companies have partially turned their backs on employees the same can be said for employees. The companies owe no more loyalty to employees than what the employees are willing to offer the company.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 6:49:16 PM
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chaplainwinston
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quote:
Even to this day if a person is fired it is the companies responsibility to show cause for firing if they are attempting to deny the exemployee umemployment.
I live in CA. The unemployment office told me I could not collect because I was fired. I took the company to court. I proved my case and the judge ruled in my favor. Then I was able to collect unemployment. I was sent checks for 6 months. I worked for a company that laid people off when business was slow so they could get unemployment then they hired them back when they were needed.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 7:30:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
quote:
I suspect you are in for a big let-down. No one, short of Jesus Christ Himself, could deliver on even half of Obama's promises and the expectations of adoring followers such as yourself. Your faith belongs with the true Messiah, Jesus Christ - not this false messiah, Obama.
He never said he could deliever all of his promises but he will try. He offers hope to America which we have seemed to have lost. He promises change that is why he got elected. Black people have been let down many times before but we have made great strides. Perhaps Obama will also as President. He is not Jesus and God throughout history has been part of our sucesses and failures. He has let both good and evil coexist since the fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus is the only perfect man. He is 100% man and 100% God. That makes a world of difference.Jesus was not a political leader, he left that for mankind. Remember all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose.
I remember.... all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 7:31:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
What is wrong with politicans trying to fulfill the will of the people?
If by doing so they break God's law it's wrong...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 7:35:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chaplainwinston
Have you ever heard the phrase, "We've been ripped of again!" Look at the home mortage crisses with ballon payments, mortaqges increasing by 2 or 3 thousand dollars a month, people did not have to qualify.
Greedy people turning down 30 year fixed rate at 6% are less are much of the problem... That 5-7 ARM looked really good upfront and many folks around here laughed at those who took the low rate 30 year... Now who is laughing...
quote:
After Clinton there was a budget surplus.
The national debt rose under Clinton...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 8:52:20 PM
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chaplainwinston
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31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
1 Cor 10:31-33 (KJV)
Is Obama not only Joseph like but Paul like not offending the unsaved homosexuals? He is a Christian perhaps some may be saved as well as Jews and other gentiles. He does support Israel.
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RE: Is Obama a type of Joseph - 11/19/2008 9:17:38 PM
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StephK
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Please, stop inferring that 0bama is like the great men of the Bible. He hasn't actually done anything yet to earn that kind of adulation.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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