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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 4:03:31 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7421
Joined: 9/28/2007
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I pay the goverment's salary and they don't bail me out when I'm in a financial jam.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 6:14:40 PM
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crownlaurel
Posts: 65
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I'd really like to know where they are making $73 per hour. My dad worked for GM for over 30 years and never made that much even if you count the benefits. He barely made over $20 per hour when he retired and it's not a cushy job in an airconditioned room. Insurance didn't begin to really spike until the last decade or so. I could have kept my Kaiser HMO for $140 per month when I graduated college. I'm sure now it'd be closer to $400 (dh could have gotten it for both of us for $195 per month for the employee portion at his job 2 years ago).
Don't think the retirees haven't already had to make some consessions. My dad has already been switched to a higher deductible, higher copayment insurance plan and has lost some of his benefits already. It's not like GM has just now decided to get in trouble financially. They've already closed several plants. Most of those who will be losing their pensions will end up on Social Security and medicare. Is that really a better option?
My dad knows he's probably going to have to take another hit, but all the blame and all the pain should not be born by the retirees.
Whoever mentioned Chevrolet doing well...Chevrolet is part of GM. Our plant made Olds Cutlass Supremes for awhile and one of the last vehicles they were making were Chevy Venturas and whatever followed it. They've not been doing well for awhile.
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ORIGINAL: Roberta_
I pay the goverment's salary and they don't bail me out when I'm in a financial jam.
But I thought that was one of Obama's campaign promises!
You mean to tell me he lied AGAIN?
Aw man, I was told I didn't have to worry about putting gas in my car or paying my mortgage anymore. Now my "E" light is on in my van and Wells Fargo keeps calling me.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 6:22:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Two comments:
1) I'm not sure that paying taxes has ever been a voluntary process. Still, we are admonished to pay to Ceasar what he asks.
No limits?
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 6:32:48 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Did you hear that the automakers are refusing to lower their salaries or make any concessions?
Really makes me want to jump up and bail them out......
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Luke 8:16
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 6:48:46 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1017
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Did you hear that the automakers are refusing to lower their salaries or make any concessions?
Really makes me want to jump up and bail them out......
Isn't that the union? The UAW?
I thought I heard the company executives submitted to whatever COngress decided.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 8:16:14 PM
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JMiller
Posts: 12
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
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World net daily
Economists see U S recession
bellaciao
Gerald Celente forecasts depression
If these two predictions are correct then all these bailouts will be for nothing
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 9:27:11 PM
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relady
Posts: 1212
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
You know the guy making $70+ dollars/hr could have stood up and said "you know i make a comfortable living, good benefits, and retirement let's not drive the company out of business". I'm sorry, but the average Joe on the line is not making $70 an hour. I've sold homes for Ford employees who worked the line here in St. Louis and there is no way they were making that kind of money.
I listened to the CEOs testify today in Washington and they are asking for a LOAN, to be repaid with interest, and they are foregoing raises and bonuses. Everyone is willing to make concessions. And over the past couple of years the workers have made HUGE concessions in pay and benefits. They don't want their jobs going away.
There is so much mis-information floating around about how much money auto workers make, it's just unbelievable. These people work very hard, in not the nicest of conditions and they don't make anywhere close to $70 and hour. That would be over $145K a year! I don't know where that figure came from....but it's definitely from an overactive imagination.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 10:15:55 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Did you hear that the automakers are refusing to lower their salaries or make any concessions?
Really makes me want to jump up and bail them out......
If they get forced into a Ch. 11 BK, it may be out of the UAW's hands at that point. I still think that's the best long run solution, though I have no idea where the financing for it will come from if not from Uncle Sam.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 10:17:36 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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Could be based on their total employment expense (including post retirement benefits) using only the number of ACTIVE employees in the denominator. I've seen people play those kinds of numbers games before.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/18/2008 11:45:10 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2003
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Could be based on their total employment expense (including post retirement benefits) using only the number of ACTIVE employees in the denominator. I've seen people play those kinds of numbers games before.
That's what I was thinking, too. GM has such wonders as the "job bank", as well as lots of people on pension.
One suggestion for GM might be to break it up into smaller entities. The company is gigantic- it employs 300,000 people and has a gross revenue that is equivalent to 1.2% of the nation's GDP (larger many countries.) If it were broken up such that the ownership was divided by brand (the different companies could still partner to develop engines and parts.), it might be easier to manage. More importantly, Buick might be easier for a private equity fund or private investor to swallow than, say, the entire firm. Breaking up the GM monopsony would also be good news for employees. If Buick wanted to pull out of Flint, Michigan, it would be unlikely that Cadillac and Chevy would do the same thing at the same time. This could also encourage competition between employers, thus reducing the need for a union.
Another idea is that Michigan should be required to switch to a right-to-work state before any federal bail-outs. I don't know if this will happen with Democrats in power, but this will create more job opportunities, lower labor costs, and place the blame for any future failures squarely on the businessmen. (It might also stop a filibuster.)
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 8:56:49 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
If these people couldn't make a good living making $72 a hour.
$72/hr is the AVERAGE COST OF EMPLOYMENT, not the average salary. The $72 includes cost of union fees, health insurance, life insurance, other benefits, administrative costs, etc. The actual wages average between $18 and $35 an hour.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 9:01:27 AM
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garsyt
Posts: 2212
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From: the bottom of the laundry basket
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So how much of that $72 an hour is being counted twice? Counting it per on the floor employee and as part of the wage of an administrative employee?
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 9:15:41 AM
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Cindy.GlorySite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/15/2008
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quote:
$72/hr is the AVERAGE COST OF EMPLOYMENT, not the average salary. The $72 includes cost of union fees, health insurance, life insurance, other benefits, administrative costs, etc. The actual wages average between $18 and $35 an hour.
Yeah, Administrative Costs. Probably all the high salary jobs in there too. And the CEO, 4.5 million? Come on. Who needs that much money. Is that a year? He is the one talking to Congress. He should give most of that back and bail out his own company, and bring the jobs back to the USA.
$81K average for skilled worker (including health costs) You can't count all the health costs in there like they are. That is what their insurance is for.
And the big automakers have blown it by all the new robotics they have bought to automate the process. How much did those cost? Millions each for sure. And the lost jobs due to all the robotics. Robotics=Cars we cannot afford.
Not many people can afford a new car or truck anymore. I say make them re-do it all, and make cars we the people can afford! Good grief, who can afford a 30K truck? Our farm only cost 40K. And they kept pumping out all those HUGE Suv's, for mega bucks. They didn't care about the environment or the gas crisis. Just the $$$.
They better not bail them out. It is their own fault for being greedy and bloating the prices of new autos. No wonder they can't sell any.
Cindy
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 10:28:48 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Breaking up the company into smaller firms might solve a couple of problems. One thing that hamstrings the company on the design side is that the Chevy Malibu needs to be standardized enough to function equally as well as a Saab 9.3 . All the various models have to have basic bones that can morph into 3 or 4 different models.
GM has taken a bit of an easy way out with very bland styling to facilitate all that.
One problem though would be that it runs against the trend toward consolidation and economies of scale within the industry. There aren't many small car companies left in the world (excluding some of the new Korean firms which are rapidly gaining on the rest.)
The only thing you can say for sure is that there aren't any easy answers. If the answer were easy, we'd all be investment bankers and we would own our own internet forums where everyone would agree with us.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 11:36:29 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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One good example of why the most recent union contract offloads the the cost of retiree health care to the union.
GM contributed a fair chunk of change to fund a union-controlled trust that would pay the cost of union employees' post retirement health care. That does a couple of things -
1) Insulates retirees insurance obligations from a GM bankruptcy
2) Tells the union - "Sure go ahead and promise your members a gold-plated retirement package. Just as long as GM isn't on the hook for it."
Both good things, in my opinion.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 12:23:28 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Sure sounds good to let the union back up it's promises, but then again, won't they run out of money too?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 8:02:22 PM
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JMiller
Posts: 12
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
Status: offline
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Beggars used to stand on the street corners wearing dirty rags, and holding out a tin cup.
But today they put on their Armani suit and Rolex watch, get in their Lear jet and fly to Washington DC, and hold out their tin cups (gold plated) in the formerly hallowed halls of congress.
This just sticks in my craw, as it should every American that lays hold to the Christian/Judeo work ethic.
There are indeed a lot of misconceptions concerning this issue in the media, let me clear up one, this automotive industry crises is not a
result of the current credit crises the automotive industry has been in serious trouble for at least three years now, example Ford lost $12 billion in 2005, where as the subprime housing problems came up only in 2007. The automotive executives would have us to believe otherwise, so as to
make folk think that it is in no wise their fault. but now you know better.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/19/2008 8:41:40 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2003
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JMiller
Beggars used to stand on the street corners wearing dirty rags, and holding out a tin cup.
But today they put on their Armani suit and Rolex watch, get in their Lear jet and fly to Washington DC, and hold out their tin cups (gold plated) in the formerly hallowed halls of congress.
This just sticks in my craw, as it should every American that lays hold to the Christian/Judeo work ethic.
There are indeed a lot of misconceptions concerning this issue in the media, let me clear up one, this automotive industry crises is not a
result of the current credit crises the automotive industry has been in serious trouble for at least three years now, example Ford lost $12 billion in 2005, where as the subprime housing problems came up only in 2007. The automotive executives would have us to believe otherwise, so as to
make folk think that it is in no wise their fault. but now you know better.
You'd be suprised:
http://www.businessweek.com/blogs/recession_in_america/archives/2008/11/takin_it_to_the.html?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_managing
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 12:33:23 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Sure sounds good to let the union back up it's promises, but then again, won't they run out of money too?
It's possible that the union would run out of money, but GM put in $35 billion or so into the trust initially with another $5 billion the following year. Surely that ought to last for a little while.
The idea was to fund the trust to the point where additional contributions, if needed, could be contributed by the union. In theory, it should be enough. It should also make the union a bit more careful about what it promises to younger employees.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 12:35:29 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
I pay the goverment's salary and they don't bail me out when I'm in a financial jam.
Yes they do (sometimes, at least) - it's called unemployment insurance.
If you employed thousands of taxpayers (or more importantly, many thousand VOTERS) you might find the government a bit more willing to listen though.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 6:53:16 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1868
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: online
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I pray they don't get the bailout they are seeking. IF we have that much money to give away I prefer seeing it given to the poor, the homeless, the families of military men and women who are putting their life on the line everyday . That would be a payout I could vote for.
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