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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 9:21:23 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
What on good earth is a GWoR?
The Great War of Rhetoric. This is the war where:
You can't take liquids on airplanes because they could contain poisons, explosives or bacteria but we'll toss it in a trash can right next to you.
We'll take an unrelated problem with a nation that has nothing to do with our decades long problem with Islamic militants and start a trillion dollar war with them.
We'll lock down our borders and put your family in jeopardy if you live close to a Canadian Fire Department because your life isn't important.
We'll make you pay $100 for a passport and not let you back into the country without it but we'll let 30,000,000 Mexicans and others from central and south America in and give them citizenship. Our government will also make sure it harasses and badgers those agents and those residents of border states since they don't want to stem the flow of cheap labor and middle eastern terrorists who want to enter the country. Someone has to shovel the manure on Dubya's farm and hide the victims of the hunting accidents over at Cheney's.
We'll make zillions and zillions of new laws since we totally failed to enforce the rules and regulations on the books at the time of 9/11.
Most importantly though the government will make sure that we the people are frightened and terrified and crying ourselves to sleep at night so that the government can be their comforter. After all without some kind of fear what kind of government can really govern?
That is the Great War of Rhetoric masquerading as a war against terror.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 9:28:25 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 1951
Joined: 9/23/2005
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In a rare moment, I find myself agreeing with Joe Biden, except that we wil not be "tested", we will be attacked again in a major way, I'm betting within the first year of Obama taking office. Bin Laden has already alluded to it, and the Russians are moving missles to their border.
Our enemies have been emboldened by our electing a man that they know will do little, if anything, to respond to such an event.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 9:48:02 AM
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phreddy
Posts: 287
Joined: 3/28/2007
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Violence in Baghdad has increased greatly in November. I don't know the cause, but it could be due to the fact that it looks like our next government won't have the nerve to stand up to terrorists.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 10:23:19 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1511
Joined: 5/4/2005
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As soon as Bush is gone I'll breathe a deep breath and rejoice.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 10:53:29 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Bin Laden has already alluded to it, and the Russians are moving missles to their border.
I seem to remember getting an awful lot of flack these last four years when I would kindly point out some of the stirrings and happenings of the Bear. I seem to remember the flack going something along the lines of "Russia is dead, bankrupt and no more because Reagan won the Cold War!"
So can I now say that Dubya snatched Defeat right out of the Jaws of victory in that conflict? BTW I don't believe that you were the one saying that Taf, you always seemed to have had a wary eye on Russia.
quote:
In a rare moment, I find myself agreeing with Joe Biden, except that we wil not be "tested", we will be attacked again in a major way, I'm betting within the first year of Obama taking office.
Have the conflicts of the last 6+ years had any impact on the situation? I think everyone is overrating the impact of who is president because we certainly had to deal with an awful lot of garbage during the 8 years of Reagan. In other words no one was intimidated by the Gipper.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 1:18:52 PM
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sue244
Posts: 409
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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Hey guys you know the reason appeasement has never worked before is because it wasn't the One doing the talking. I'm sure Obama has looked at Europe Appeasing Hitler before WW2 and realizes every mistake they made and will not make the same mistake when he is appeasing the terrorist around the world.
End Sarcasim. Of course we are going to be attaked the min President Bush is gone. And we will be attacked multiple times over the next 4/8 years with Obama because I have no illusions that he will do anything to stand up to the terrroist. it will be like the Clinton Adminstration but a lot worse. No one seems to remember how we felt on 9-12-01 and that no one would have thought we would go 7 years without another attack on American soil. I will be very instersted to see in 40 years when they can declassify material to see how many attacks have been stoped under the Bush Adminstration.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 1:34:37 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
I believe we will, just how big I don't know. The World Trade Center bombing was done within a month of Clinton's presidency and the Twin Towers fell several months after Bush's presidency. Biden said the virgin-birthed Obama will have an internatinal crisis within the first 6 months so I am not the only one who believes Obama will be tested.
The attack on the Twin Towers wasn't thrown together. It was years in the planning. Remember 9/11 was the second terrorist attack on the Trade Center. It was executed when all the pieces were in place. If another attack takes place, it will be when they are prepared logistically. Once ready, they may wait briefly if a particular event is timely. Otherwise it will happen when and if they are ready.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 2:32:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: -J-
To me it would not be using sophomoric, and dangerous taunts such as "Bring 'em On!" (which Bush himself agreed was a mistake) As well as diving into unnecessary conflicts and wars. I see nothing wrong with talking first.
I am not a fan of Bush, but talking first to people who rationalize killing innocent people will accomplish what?
quote:
What's wrong with understanding?
What is there to understand? You seem to be under the impression these folks wish to talk... You have any idea what they might, and probably would do to you if you professed your faith?
quote:
It seems you feel violence is the only answer, and in some cases it is. BUT treating a threat diplomatically rather then violently would be the better choice.
What sanctions are you going to put on a terrorist group? You are talking about folks who talk children into wearing 6 pound of C4 and blowing themselves in the name of God...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 2:51:19 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: -J-
To me it would not be using sophomoric, and dangerous taunts such as "Bring 'em On!" (which Bush himself agreed was a mistake) As well as diving into unnecessary conflicts and wars. I see nothing wrong with talking first.
When hasn't America talked first?
quote:
leon figg
How far do we have to bend over and be understanding of people who want to kill or enslave people that do not believe as they do?
-j-
What's wrong with understanding?
What exactly is there left to understand about Islamic extremism?
All one has to do is read the wriings of those that have been advocating it since 1930s, if not before.
All one has to do is listen to their speeches and watch their videos (both the ones they make public to the whole world, as well as those that they try to keep the West from looking at and knowing about).
quote:
leonfigg
Sooner or later someone, some country, has to do what has to be done no matter how distasteful. Right now, there is practically no other country, or international community organization, that is will and able as the United States to do that. When we stop be willing to do that which HAS to be done, that is when this world will be on a downward spiral that it will never be able to recover from, no matter how understanding we try to be.
-j-
It seems you feel violence is the only answer, and in some cases it is. BUT treating a threat diplomatically rather then violently would be the better choice.
I have no idea where you got the idea where I believe that violence is the only answer. Sometimes, especially in cases where people are already facing invasion or genocide, where there is no time, or evidence that diplomacy of any kind will work, some country, or in the case of Ethopia (prior to World War II), the United Nations needs to take an active roll and even militaristic roll to address or even resolve an issue, is the only way. That is why Halle Selasie's plea to the United Nations before World War II has stayed with me. He was trying tto warn the world what was coming, and the world turned a deaf ear to him, and his country.
Diplomacy is not always the answer. Hitler used diplomacy to give his enemies a false sense of peace and security so he could more easily invade and subjucate them.
Diplomacy and agreements on paper meant nothing to him. One just has to look at the history of the early days of Worled War II. He used diplomacy to bluff his way into regaining the industrial rich regions of Germany. Hitler then he aggreed not to do something as far as Austria was concernd, then turned around and did it. Then he did the same with Czechslovkia. Then Poland. By the time the world realized he was just playing them for fools, Hitler controled and dominated most of Europe.
From what I understand, if people spent more time reading "Mein Kampf", like Churchill, instead of being understanding and selling their souls for the promise of peace, they may have had some idea, well ahead of time, the kind of person Hitler was, and what exactly his real asperations were.
Yes, we need to use diplomacy to address issues. That is the purpose of the United Nations. Their purposes is not to study all kinds of things throughout the world, but to address and resolve issues before they become conflicts.
At the same time diplomacy can not be allowed to be used as a tool by those who are not really interested in compromise, or negotioation. Diplomacy can not be allowed to go on forever without the issue being resolved in some way.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/13/2008 3:48:47 PM >
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/13/2008 7:52:17 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2029
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
What exactly is there left to understand about Islamic extremism?
All one has to do is read the wriings of those that have been advocating it since 1930s, if not before.
All one has to do is listen to their speeches and watch their videos (both the ones they make public to the whole world, as well as those that they try to keep the West from looking at and knowing about).
Actually, it would be nice if we take a closer look to see if various conflicts were actually based on religious hatred, or if they're really just current manifestations of long-standing tribal tensions or political differences masquerading as "Islamic extremism." If you incorrectly assess a situation like this and still try to solve it, you can wind up just making things worse. Maybe some folks in our government do see those sort of differences, but their domestic propaganda certainly doesn't hint at it.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 10:28:52 AM
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relady
Posts: 1211
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
Teddy said walk softly but carry a big stick. Bush has been pretty good at carrying the big stick part, but he wouldn't know how to walk softly if he took lessons. One out of two isn't good enough.
quote:
By the way , Bin Ladin found out that he can kill 3000 Americans and get away with it and Americans are so stupid that instate of going after him we would go after someone who had nothing to do with 9/11. You are right president bush is very courageous, instate of going after the guy who ordered killing of 3000 Americans, President went after the guy who had nothing to do with it. You got a have guts to do that. I'm not sure I'd call it "guts". He was listening to Cheney in one ear and Rumsfeld in the other - both ancient cold war hawks (warmongers). I'm not convinced this was all Bush's decision. He's not overly smart.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 10:43:40 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5781
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
quote:
What do you think the next president would do about it?
Perhaps the terrorists will be invited to the White House for a tea party to discuss matters.
I believe I remember something similiar to that being done with Japan;
Let's see it was done on December 6, 1941.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 11:04:30 AM
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-J-
Posts: 63
Joined: 10/6/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: -J-
To me it would not be using sophomoric, and dangerous taunts such as "Bring 'em On!" (which Bush himself agreed was a mistake) As well as diving into unnecessary conflicts and wars. I see nothing wrong with talking first.
I am not a fan of Bush, but talking first to people who rationalize killing innocent people will accomplish what?
quote:
What's wrong with understanding?
What is there to understand? You seem to be under the impression these folks wish to talk... You have any idea what they might, and probably would do to you if you professed your faith?
quote:
It seems you feel violence is the only answer, and in some cases it is. BUT treating a threat diplomatically rather then violently would be the better choice.
quote:
What sanctions are you going to put on a terrorist group? You are talking about folks who talk children into wearing 6 pound of C4 and blowing themselves in the name of God...
When I say sit down and try to work out a diplomatic solution, I'm not talking about going to a cave complex in the mountains of Afghanistan/Pakistan and trying to reason with hardened Fundamentalist terrorists. I don't believe taht would ever be a real possibility. When I say try diplomacy first, I'm referring to Iran and Syria.
Take care,
-J-
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 11:40:10 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 899
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I believe I remember something similar to that being done with Japan;
Let's see it was done on December 6, 1941.
Thanks
RC
Yep I am afraid that our government will be taught old lessons again if they are not careful.
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 11:59:25 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1086
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Who do you think is funding, hiding, and protecting the "hardened Fundamentalist terrorists" if it isn't Iran and Syria? Do you not consider Ahmadingaling, or whatever his name is to be a terrorist? Get serious!
quote:
ORIGINAL: -J-
When I say sit down and try to work out a diplomatic solution, I'm not talking about going to a cave complex in the mountains of Afghanistan/Pakistan and trying to reason with hardened Fundamentalist terrorists. I don't believe taht would ever be a real possibility. When I say try diplomacy first, I'm referring to Iran and Syria.
Take care,
-J-
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 12:01:23 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5147
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
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quote:
Out of curiosity, do you think that the US "acting nice" will really cause groups like Al Qaeda to stop hating us? I personally have kind of gotten the impression, mostly from their own interviews and material, that the only thing that will cause them to NOT hate us is us all converting to Islam. And at that, it would have to be the *right kind* of Islam.
I for one am not willing to stop being an "infidel".
Zhi is absolutely correct. The Islamic nations hate us, not because we're American, not because of Bush, not because we're immoral or rich or arrogant or greedy or destroying the environment or any of the other reasons that Americans have been beating themselves up for in the past several years. The Islamic nations hate us because we are not Muslim. Radical Islam calls for the death of all infidels, and they hate us no matter who the president is.
_____________________________
Bonky
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 12:02:40 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1086
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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That was some post-party bash, the next day, huh? Some people never seem to realize that appeasement doesn't work when you're faced with an enemy who delights in dying, himself, in order to kill you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
quote:
What do you think the next president would do about it?
Perhaps the terrorists will be invited to the White House for a tea party to discuss matters.
I believe I remember something similiar to that being done with Japan;
Let's see it was done on December 6, 1941.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 12:06:51 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 899
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Bush has been pretty good at carrying the big stick part, but he wouldn't know how to walk softly if he took lessons. One out of two isn't good enough.
It is hard to play hardball while walking softly. If being soft worked with these guys then they would have stopped after the Cole, or maybe that night club they bombed killing amercian soldiers stationed in that country.
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 12:20:23 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
quote:
Bush has been pretty good at carrying the big stick part, but he wouldn't know how to walk softly if he took lessons. One out of two isn't good enough.
It is hard to play hardball while walking softly. If being soft worked with these guys then they would have stopped after the Cole, or maybe that night club they bombed killing amercian soldiers stationed in that country.
Over 4000 Americans have been killed and 25000 or so wounded since 2003. The "stick" hasn't been a cure-all, either.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 12:23:52 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Over 4000 Americans have been killed and 25000 or so wounded since 2003. The "stick" hasn't been a cure-all, either.
4000 in 5 years compared to the 3000+ in less than an hour, you choose.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 12:40:57 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Over 4000 Americans have been killed and 25000 or so wounded since 2003. The "stick" hasn't been a cure-all, either.
4000 in 5 years compared to the 3000+ in less than an hour, you choose.
Had we not invaded Iraq, it would be a few hundred rather than 4000. We made our choice.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 12:59:25 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1951
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm not convinced this was all Bush's decision. He's not overly smart.
He was smart enough to beat both the guys the Dems put up against him in 2000 and 2004...
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 1:04:37 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1299
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
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quote:
He was smart enough to beat both the guys the Dems put up against him in 2000 and 2004...
Well, it depends on the day you're asking. A Republican in the oval office is either, by equal turns, diabolically genius, or insanely stupid. It changes depending upon the circumstance.
Personally, I'm inclined to view Bush as a democrat in retrospect. Other than his court nominations, except for the Harriet Meiers goof, I can't think of one policy he embraced that's conservative.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 1:18:39 PM
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-J-
Posts: 63
Joined: 10/6/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Who do you think is funding, hiding, and protecting the "hardened Fundamentalist terrorists" if it isn't Iran and Syria? Do you not consider Ahmadingaling, or whatever his name is to be a terrorist? Get serious!
quote:
ORIGINAL: -J-
When I say sit down and try to work out a diplomatic solution, I'm not talking about going to a cave complex in the mountains of Afghanistan/Pakistan and trying to reason with hardened Fundamentalist terrorists. I don't believe taht would ever be a real possibility. When I say try diplomacy first, I'm referring to Iran and Syria.
Take care,
-J-
*sigh*
Yea, I am serious.
No I don't believe Ahmadinejad to be a terrorist. Good one on the "Ahmadingaling" gag... a real kneeslapper! I'll be sure to use that one around the water cooler.
According to recent comments by Chief Hayden, the "Bleed-out" of Iraqi veterans poses an even greater threat to the West. You may need hindsight glasses, because it's supposed to be 20/20, but it seems to me that our failure to pursue a diplomatic solution to our contrived Iraq crises back in '03 caused this problem.
To go and "Bomb Bomb Bomb ... Bomb Bomb Iraaaaaan" without first attempting a diplomatic solution would be dangerous, and to do so without seriously considering the advice and warnings from our allies once again would be suicide.
Peace,
-J-
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RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/14/2008 2:09:56 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1086
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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First, I can't take credit for the Ahmadingaling bit. That came from an afternoon radio talk show host. And he really is a terrorist. Haven't you seen the pictures of him at the capture of the US diplomats in Iran? Do you think he is spewing hatred of everything not moslem in the spirit of friendship?
Secondly, there were 17 (seventeen) -count them- UN resolutions against Iraq that Hussein ignored. It could have ended peacefully but for his arrogance.
quote:
ORIGINAL: -J-
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Who do you think is funding, hiding, and protecting the "hardened Fundamentalist terrorists" if it isn't Iran and Syria? Do you not consider Ahmadingaling, or whatever his name is to be a terrorist? Get serious!
quote:
ORIGINAL: -J-
When I say sit down and try to work out a diplomatic solution, I'm not talking about going to a cave complex in the mountains of Afghanistan/Pakistan and trying to reason with hardened Fundamentalist terrorists. I don't believe taht would ever be a real possibility. When I say try diplomacy first, I'm referring to Iran and Syria.
Take care,
-J-
*sigh*
Yea, I am serious.
No I don't believe Ahmadinejad to be a terrorist. Good one on the "Ahmadingaling" gag... a real kneeslapper! I'll be sure to use that one around the water cooler.
According to recent comments by Chief Hayden, the "Bleed-out" of Iraqi veterans poses an even greater threat to the West. You may need hindsight glasses, because it's supposed to be 20/20, but it seems to me that our failure to pursue a diplomatic solution to our contrived Iraq crises back in '03 caused this problem.
To go and "Bomb Bomb Bomb ... Bomb Bomb Iraaaaaan" without first attempting a diplomatic solution would be dangerous, and to do so without seriously considering the advice and warnings from our allies once again would be suicide.
Peace,
-J-
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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