|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/15/2008 5:31:39 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Of course, I'm ex-Army, we didn't have the expensive toys to keep us out of harms way that you Air Force boys had. 
Being ex military you should know that for quite sometime the military was terribly underfunded and it takes money to get back up to speed.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/15/2008 7:41:37 PM
|
|
|
todd_t
Posts: 1621
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
|
quote:
Please... Janet Reno's cure for child abuse was burning them alive...
Are you kidding me? So Waco was not a mass suicide via Koresh?
Do you believe in black helicopters, and receive secret CIA transmissions in your dental work as well?
Just asking...
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/15/2008 11:31:41 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Please... Janet Reno's cure for child abuse was burning them alive...
Are you kidding me? So Waco was not a mass suicide via Koresh?
Do you believe in black helicopters, and receive secret CIA transmissions in your dental work as well?
Just asking...
Someone who is afraid of guns like they are the bogeyman shouldn't take the above route...
Sorry, but Koresh could have been picked up with not much fuss... It was a show, a show of force... The people inside were nuts... No doubt... The people outside wanted to make a point...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/16/2008 7:49:26 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
The military may have been underfunded because it was over extended. In other words, we maintain bases and homeport ships in practically every area of the world. WWII ended over 60 years ago yet we maintain bases in Europe and Japan; it's time to bring the boys home!!!!!!! I'm all for a well funded Department of Defense, but not for a global military force that antagonizes and frightens other nations, even some of whom we consider friendly. Afghanistan-Yes, Iraq-No
Yeah isolationism worked out peachy after the first world war didn't it? Where do you think places like Georgia and other ex-USSR states would be if not for our presence in Europe? Should we pull out of Korea too? Just bring our boys home and cut their spending and leave them having to jump through hoops to build equipment for war (like we had to for WWII) except this time we don't have the manufacturing base to do that do we.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/16/2008 3:51:14 PM
|
|
|
relady
Posts: 1211
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
|
quote:
The military service men/women that drop the laser guided bombs that try their hardest to avoid civilian casualties to the point of even putting theirselves in danger doing so do not deserve this kind of slap-in-the-face comment. and yet, they all know that innocents get killed and that they are doing it. Nothing Obama said even came close to indicating that he didn't think our service personnel don't try their best to avoid civilian casualties. This is just another example of the right trying to make it up as they go and it's backfiring on them. It is just too easy to look up the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/16/2008 5:32:34 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Pardon me if they don't seem to be so under funded!
Isolationism?!
As i was speaking of isolationism prior to WWII what is your point.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/16/2008 5:35:24 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The military service men/women that drop the laser guided bombs that try their hardest to avoid civilian casualties to the point of even putting theirselves in danger doing so do not deserve this kind of slap-in-the-face comment. and yet, they all know that innocents get killed and that they are doing it. Nothing Obama said even came close to indicating that he didn't think our service personnel don't try their best to avoid civilian casualties. This is just another example of the right trying to make it up as they go and it's backfiring on them. It is just too easy to look up the truth.
He didn't say regrettably civilians are dying, the way he worded it didn't sound like the civilians were dying on accident. How he says things directly affects our troops, he is their main boss after all or will be. The troops are already shook up from what they have to do and the loss of civilian life and to have him speak in such a way doesn't help their morale at all. But hey ever since Korea the MO of the antiwar crowd has been to kill the morale of the troops to prove their point.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/16/2008 6:02:52 PM
|
|
|
Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 899
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Please... Janet Reno's cure for child abuse was burning them alive...
Are you kidding me? So Waco was not a mass suicide via Koresh?
Do you believe in black helicopters, and receive secret CIA transmissions in your dental work as well?
Just asking...
Someone who is afraid of guns like they are the bogeyman shouldn't take the above route...
Sorry, but Koresh could have been picked up with not much fuss... It was a show, a show of force... The people inside were nuts... No doubt... The people outside wanted to make a point...
Do you remember when they were trying to arrest that guy who lived in a cabin. The FBI killed either his wife or son I cannot remember which one.
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/16/2008 8:04:23 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Please... Janet Reno's cure for child abuse was burning them alive...
Are you kidding me? So Waco was not a mass suicide via Koresh?
Do you believe in black helicopters, and receive secret CIA transmissions in your dental work as well?
Just asking...
Someone who is afraid of guns like they are the bogeyman shouldn't take the above route...
Sorry, but Koresh could have been picked up with not much fuss... It was a show, a show of force... The people inside were nuts... No doubt... The people outside wanted to make a point...
Do you remember when they were trying to arrest that guy who lived in a cabin. The FBI killed either his wife or son I cannot remember which one.
Ruby Ridge... A sniper shot the wife as she held a baby... Randy Weaver I believe...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/16/2008 9:05:58 PM
|
|
|
relady
Posts: 1211
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
|
quote:
He didn't say regrettably civilians are dying, the way he worded it didn't sound like the civilians were dying on accident. Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree - I obviously did not hear the same thing you did. But then, I'm not sitting around looking for reasons to hate the guy, either, so maybe that makes a difference. 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 12:29:12 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Budget cuts on the DoD could actually help out our standing in the world.
You know this how?
Seems to me that our standing in the world would be increased if we spent even more and were better prepared to help everyone better than we are. The more we spend on our military, the less other countries have to spend on theirs, because then they will ask for our help more against the evils most thinking people are well of is coming.
quote:
This imperial attitude some of you folks have to interfer in the affairs of foreign country's problems with their neighbors is not what the founding fathers envisioned for this country.
O would like to ask what imperialims, but I am not going to open myself to that propoganda anymore.
The more I hear people say what they think our fore fathers had in mind, in regard ot our national defense, the more I am convinced no one really knows what our fore fathers really had in mind.
Yes, the origional idea may have been to base our defense on the idea of militias, but it is painfully obvious that that our position in the world, and the course of history had other plans for us, starting with Thomas Jefferson's presidency when he set out to deal with the Brbary Coast pirates when no country in Europe would.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 6:03:28 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
You used isolationism to argue (or was that just ridicule?) for the need to continue higher military spending.
We are currently at the opposite end of isolationism.
The thought that we could reverse this 180 degrees in 4 years, or even 8, is absurd; Complete isolationism like the 1930's would take decades.
No you misunderstand the comment was made that we were underfunded because we were over extended in countries around the world. Pulling out of those countries would be the beginning of isolationism and we know for a fact that doesn't work out well for the world.
quote:
Budget cuts on the DoD could actually help out our standing in the world. This imperial attitude some of you folks have to interfer in the affairs of foreign country's problems with their neighbors is not what the founding fathers envisioned for this country.
Georgia is a prime example of this, they attacked 1st.
Yeah we see how pulling out of foreign lands played out in the 30s didn't we. Did we step into the Georgia incident? No, we made our support of an ALLY clear but did nothing to prevent what happened. I guess you would have us go back to the way we did things previously and allow Russia to take back most of eastern Europe again. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We could completely disband our army and it wouldn't make much of a difference in the world view of the US, especially when we aren't there to bail our allys out again. If we disband or woefully underfund then the UN loses all it's teeth and we return quickly to the pre WWII world.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 6:05:37 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
He didn't say regrettably civilians are dying, the way he worded it didn't sound like the civilians were dying on accident. Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree - I obviously did not hear the same thing you did. But then, I'm not sitting around looking for reasons to hate the guy, either, so maybe that makes a difference.
I am not looking for reasons to hate the guy, I am however intimately connected to our troops overseas. Family and friends of mine are in every theater around the world and when they have a Big Boss who doesn't appear to respect them the morale is lower and that is dangerous.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 7:39:47 AM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yeah we see how pulling out of foreign lands played out in the 30s didn't we.
What foreign lands were we in besides the Philippines?
quote:
No you misunderstand the comment was made that we were underfunded because we were over extended in countries around the world.
So if we were in fewer places then the funds we have would be adequate. Nothing to misunderstand there. Shouldn't be any reason to have so many in Japan or Germany unless our foreign policy totally wasted our victory in the Cold War. Dubya couldn't possibly have pulled that one off could he? Oh wait, let's not go there.
quote:
If we disband or woefully underfund then the UN loses all it's teeth and we return quickly to the pre WWII world.
The UN that didn't protect Georgia? That didn't intervene in Kosovo? That had member nations bypass the oil for food provisions for Iraq and made big money buying from Saddam under the table? The UN whose troops are becoming nefarious for raping the citizens of the nations they are supposed to be protecting? That UN? : )
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 8:58:40 AM
|
|
|
TaoPoohBear
Posts: 589
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Budget cuts on the DoD could actually help out our standing in the world.
You know this how?
Ron Paul and Dwight D. Eisenhower
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
This imperial attitude some of you folks have to interfer in the affairs of foreign country's problems with their neighbors is not what the founding fathers envisioned for this country.
The more I hear people say what they think our fore fathers had in mind, in regard ot our national defense, the more I am convinced no one really knows what our fore fathers really had in mind.
"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all . . . The Nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest."
—George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796
"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."
—Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801
"America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity . . . She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart . . . Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy . . . She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force . . . She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit . . ."
—John Quincy Adams, 1821
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 9:42:01 AM
|
|
|
TaoPoohBear
Posts: 589
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Did we step into the Georgia incident? No, we made our support of an ALLY clear but did nothing to prevent what happened. I guess you would have us go back to the way we did things previously and allow Russia to take back most of eastern Europe again. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We could completely disband our army and it wouldn't make much of a difference in the world view of the US, especially when we aren't there to bail our allys out again. If we disband or woefully underfund then the UN loses all it's teeth and we return quickly to the pre WWII world.
Beyond my Founding Father quotes in my previous post (to another poster), let me tackle a few specifics to your argument -
WE emboldened Georgia with arms & material support -
After Mixed U.S. Messages, a War Erupted in Georgia
As for the rest -
I agree with Ron Paul
quote:
"Under the Constitution, we don't have the authority to put troops in foreign countries, willy-nilly, when we're not at war … [and] we can't afford it anymore — we're going broke. We're on the verge of doing what all great empires have done in the past — spread themselves too far wide around the world."
I do think he's a little extreme about Korea, but once "The Dear Leader" passes on to that great cinema in the sky, why not start considering it?
We Are Not the World's Policeman, or the U.N.'s
I find it astounding that little more than half of us can like our elected leadership;
AND YET
Expect a majority population of a foreign country to like having our military sent there by our leadership.
Lack of military presence is not isolationism, lack of engagement is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 10:00:00 AM
|
|
|
letusreason
Posts: 869
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Budget cuts on the DoD could actually help out our standing in the world.
You know this how?
Ron Paul and Dwight D. Eisenhower
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
This imperial attitude some of you folks have to interfer in the affairs of foreign country's problems with their neighbors is not what the founding fathers envisioned for this country.
The more I hear people say what they think our fore fathers had in mind, in regard ot our national defense, the more I am convinced no one really knows what our fore fathers really had in mind.
"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all . . . The Nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest."
—George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796
Looks like someone has a knack for harvesting N/A quotes off of Antiwar.com!
I always said you were the best copy and paste linkster around here. Well , if not, I did now lol.
Will you indulge in a little historical context with me for your quotes?
Washington's 1796 quote about hatred was aimed at those who still harbored issues with Britain. The Brits had become our best trading partner, and ideology prevented the Jeffersonians from embracing this fact. The Jeffersonian Republicans had emotional ties to France, despite King Louis' loss of his head and the Terror that followed.
So you think Iraq was invaded for "animosity"? Please explain.
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 10:36:10 AM
|
|
|
stamper_ben
Posts: 10358
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
Yeah we see how pulling out of foreign lands played out in the 30s didn't we.
What foreign lands were we in besides the Philippines?
China. Our departure helped lead to the Japanese massacre in Nanking and their almost successful attempt at conquering the whole of Asia.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 10:46:50 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
What foreign lands were we in besides the Philippines?
after the first world war we began to pull back into our cocoon and suffered for it.
quote:
So if we were in fewer places then the funds we have would be adequate. Nothing to misunderstand there. Shouldn't be any reason to have so many in Japan or Germany unless our foreign policy totally wasted our victory in the Cold War. Dubya couldn't possibly have pulled that one off could he? Oh wait, let's not go there.
It isn't GWBs fault that Russia would like to reconquer it's lost lands, it isn't GWBs fault that there are still countries bent on war. That has never changed.
quote:
The UN that didn't protect Georgia? That didn't intervene in Kosovo? That had member nations bypass the oil for food provisions for Iraq and made big money buying from Saddam under the table? The UN whose troops are becoming nefarious for raping the citizens of the nations they are supposed to be protecting? That UN? : )
You won't get any arguement from me there but can't you see how unsensical it is to accuse the UN of not protecting nations then suggest that we pull our troops out of our allies lands?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: as soon as President Bush is gone.. - 11/17/2008 10:51:49 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 630
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Did we step into the Georgia incident? No, we made our support of an ALLY clear but did nothing to prevent what happened. I guess you would have us go back to the way we did things previously and allow Russia to take back most of eastern Europe again. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We could completely disband our army and it wouldn't make much of a difference in the world view of the US, especially when we aren't there to bail our allys out again. If we disband or woefully underfund then the UN loses all it's teeth and we return quickly to the pre WWII world.
Beyond my Founding Father quotes in my previous post (to another poster), let me tackle a few specifics to your argument -
WE emboldened Georgia with arms & material support -
After Mixed U.S. Messages, a War Erupted in Georgia
As for the rest -
I agree with Ron Paul
quote:
"Under the Constitution, we don't have the authority to put troops in foreign countries, willy-nilly, when we're not at war … [and] we can't afford it anymore — we're going broke. We're on the verge of doing what all great empires have done in the past — spread themselves too far wide around the world."
I do think he's a little extreme about Korea, but once "The Dear Leader" passes on to that great cinema in the sky, why not start considering it?
We Are Not the World's Policeman, or the U.N.'s
I find it astounding that little more than half of us can like our elected leadership;
AND YET
Expect a majority population of a foreign country to like having our military sent there by our leadership.
Lack of military presence is not isolationism, lack of engagement is.
If we pull back and cut funding there will be no incentive to maintain a ready force leading to what we had before WWII, a horribly unprepared war machine which required a retooling of manufacturing never seen before, a manufacturing base we no longer have. Also we are at a disadvantage in any incident in which we have to mobilize to even begin to attack. We won't have the airbases we now have to use as launching points, we will have to bring with us everything we need as we will lose our mobility readiness that we gain by having refueling planes stationed on foreign soil and having supplies prestationed with existing resources. Instead of the force we have now that is ready to go in days we would be stuck scrounging parts and supplies and transporting them around the globe instead of around the corner.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
Well, it made for nice photo ops of Cheney coming in through the smoke and burning ruins boasting of our protection of Georgia. 
