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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 2:16:22 AM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
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[/quote]
Are you searching for Truth or taking a gallup poll?
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Looking for the truth generally entails taking in all sides and then making an educated decision based upon the information you've acquired. It only works if you look at all sides and then are honest about the opinions that are out there. And to claim something is fact when most people on earth do not believe they are facts is not truthful.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 3:11:30 AM
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Kevfisher
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Hi, 11 Arrows.
Good basic question. My answer is that the Holy spirit confirms it within my spirit.
I know that doesnt help you at all. Sorry I cant answer your questions in a way that will convice you. I wish i could convice you! Really none of us will be able to give you the answers and confirmation that you are seeking.
This one is really between you and God. All of these people can give you great direction (really great direction) but ultimatly it comes down to your decision to open your heart to God. Ask him for the answer. I believe he is leading you to this point, as your obvious struggle with the Bible as the inspired word of God shows.
I challenge you to pray this simple prayer:
"Lord God, If you are real I ask you to reveal the truth of the bible to me. I am struggling to understand the truth of the bible and have been shown alot of different information that has made me question whether the bible is really the 'word of God'. IF it is real I ask that you confirm it for me so that i may know you."
I believe that God will answer that prayer for you. We humans do not have all of the answers that people are seaching for but God, and only God does.
I hope you give it a shot! If God isnt real it wont hurt at all, but if God is real you may get the answer you are looking for (if you are really searching for the answer)!
Im praying for you!
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 7:51:21 AM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 138
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One cannot loose what they never had. The resurrection of Christ is either historical fact or it is not. Even as am unbeliever i did not rule out the possibility of supernatural events in human history. In my mind the flood of Noah was a real possibility. Along with the account of Jonah. Its a game unbelievers play to come onto Christian sites and claim they are honestly seeking answers and they gave up on Christ because of unexplained answers and/or intellectual doubts. Most deny Christianity because of the standard of living it requires. Celibate until marriage is a big one and regular church attendance is another. If you are smart enough to do ur own homework then u can come to your own conclusions. The evidence is there...don't come on to Christian sites and try to sell that swill u rejected Christ because the evidence is simply not there. It would seem the real motive as opposed to the stated is the unbeliever simply wishes to confirm his unbelief so they can make up a little god in their own heads who is basically loving and forgiving. (Santa Clause Theology) They can also go out and live life on their own terms (guilt free fornication) without having to worry about everlasting consequences. Judgment day etc. The unbeliever is basically his own savior. In their own eyes they are basically good persons. Since Santa clause is basically loving and forgiving they will make it into heaven. Let me ask u a question. What is your understanding of what Christianity is? How according to basic Christian teachings does a person come into right relationship with God? Am not asking u to believe in God. Am asking u ur understanding of what basic Christianity is. If u have that down then nothing else is required of the Christian except prayer on your behalf God will drag u to the Cross of Christ and u will be saved from this perverse generation.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 8:06:38 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
I was raised in the Assemblies of God Church in the deep south. I even attended an ACE Christian school as well as several Christian private schools. Not sure what more background you need, but feel free to ask for specifics.
Thanks for giving us this general background info, but I'm more interested in when you actually gave your life to Christ, invited Him in and started to have a relationship with Him. How old were you, did you feel under any pressure, were you encouraged to question etc?
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"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 8:09:16 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
My first question is "Why do you believe the Bible is True?"
Because I have a living two-way relationship with God, and one of the ways in which He speaks to me is through the Bible. So it's kind of that way round.
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"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 8:44:42 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
Looking for the truth generally entails taking in all sides and then making an educated decision based upon the information you've acquired. It only works if you look at all sides and then are honest about the opinions that are out there. And to claim something is fact when most people on earth do not believe they are facts is not truthful.
My friend the truth is that the Bible is spiritual in nature and can only be understood and believed by those whose minds have been quickened by the Spirit of God. As Anselm said..."faith must precede knowledge".
Truth is not relative, it is not determined by consensus. If your goal is to find reasons to not believe, you will be successful...logically, there are many. But then, logically none of us should be here at all.
Are you seeking truth, or are you simply seeking to confirm what you already believe? Can you answer, to yourself, that question truthfully?
C.S. Lewis was an atheist and set out to disprove this nonsense about God and the Bible, as have multitudes of others. God has a way of turning those who reject Him the loudest into beacons of hope for the masses. Be careful how you proceed my friend.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I know this because my Bible tells me so. All that I know of Jesus as the Savior is contained in the Bible. I met Him there, and that is why I know the Bible is true.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 9:09:45 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
B/c the Holy Spirit confirms it in my heart. He says, yes, this is true. So I know that I know that I know that I know the word of God is true.
Ok, I'm not trying to be condescending, so don't take this the wrong way. I'm only being honest. Basically, your telling me that you believe it's true because a ghost told you it was true?" Can you imagine if you asked a Scientologist why he believes Scientology is true and he responded is was because a ghost told him it was. Be honest. What would you think of him?
You're absolutely right. Sincerely believing something in one's heart does not equate that thing to be true. It's troubling when people can't give a reason why they believe what they claim to believe. It's also against what the Bible itself says we responsible for doing (1 Peter 3:15).
But to get back to your question - we can know the Bible is God's revealed Word for all of mankind because of the veracity of its writ. Meaning, it has more than proven itself to be divine rather than human in origin.
And with each turn of the archaeological spade it continues to do so.
I am a bit befuddled though.. in all of those 30 years.. you never read or heard anything from apologetic sources? The sheer amount of books and such out there that answer your questions regarding the veracity of Scripture is astounding.
Never heard or read: Ravi Zacharias? C.S. Lewis? Hank Hanegraaff? R.C. Sproul? Paul Copan? Walter Martin? Erwin Lutzer? Lee Strobel?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 9:13:48 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
quote:
What Historical record?
Check out the writings of first century historian name Josephus.
It's late here, lol. I can't type anymore. Will continue tomorrow.
Josephus has been found to be a forgery first of all, and secondly Josephus was not even born yet when Jesus died. That's really the BEST evidence? A known forgery from a guy not even born when Jesus was alive? Seriously?
And as I've mentioned, I've read the books, Independently checked them out, and much of the material is in grave disagreements with other scholars. If you weren't aware that Josephus is now an admitted forgery then obviously you haven't independently verified this stuff, and if you did know and are still using him as your best example, then you must already understand how weak your case is.
We could discuss your comments regarding Josephus being a forgery, seriously it was one of me main themes during my later university studies. Treat the Gospels just like you would any other historical document. Subject it to the same criteria. Treat it just like Ceasar's Gallic Wars, Josephus' Jewish Wars, or Tacitus' Annals of Imperial Rome.
If you accept them as generally accurate, on what basis would you discount the claims/reliability of the Gospels?
The more important point is that historians will accept accounts as true for items that have .0001% of the backing that an account in Scripture has, but they ignore the latter.
In all my years of discussing with skeptics, atheists, agnostics, etc - those that know and are not ignorant to such evidential standings for the Bible, will acknowledge that the Gospels offer us accurate historical information, but they out-of-hand reject the idea of miracles.
This issue goes beyond the matter of historical evidence and shifts to the worldview one will allow. If you reject belief in God/Jesus and the possibility of miracles outright, then no amount of evidence will persuade you to believe otherwise.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 9:16:50 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
Ok, I remember, check out Francis Collins Francis Collins. He's a geneticist, and a well respected scientist.
So you believe in evolution then? Is it safe to assume that you don't take the Bible literally?
I believe in what is verifiable and true - Darwinian evolution is an adult fairy tale and in an age of scientific enlightenment it cannot be accepted. Micro evolution (changes within a species) is true and verifiable.
As for taking the Bible literally? As with any other piece of writ, context is king. Parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally, other parts are meant to be taken symbolically. There is poetry, prophecy, etc.. Some poetic phrases, for instance, are symbolic by nature.
When you read a book, the context of the writings help discern what is to be taken symbollically and what is to be taken literally.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 9:55:53 AM
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refpil
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Hi,
I confess I did not read everything in this thread so you might have received this answer already. I apologize if that is the case. This might help others though.
I thought about that question too and the apologetic answers seem to miss the point. I think a better question is "Is the true God the God behind the bible? Is it truly his story?"
To help think about this question, let us ask another question. If you receive a love letter claiming it is from this one person, how would you know it is really from this one person?
1) I think you will have to know some things about that one person to know if it is truly from him/her (e.g. handwriting, character, shared memories, etc.). Assuming of course that you can't ask them directly.
2) I think the God behind the bible (Yahweh, the God who is "worshipped" by the Jewish people) did attempt to let people know that he is the true God. The word that the people around that area used for God is "El" meaning the strong one (there are other gods but they are lower), a testament to his sovereignty. In the Old Testament, Yahweh claimed that he is "El". How did he let people know that he is "El"? He did it by defeating the enemies of the Jewish people, thereby showing himself to be the true sovereign-the true "El".
3) The question now is "Did Yahweh truly defeat the gods of Israel's neighbors?" That is where we turn to history to see if the history that the bible presents is how things really happened back then. Then he showed more of his character as the bible progresses.
4) I guess the question you need to answer is, is the God of the Jewish and later the Christian people (Jesus claimed to be Yahweh revealed in human flesh), who revealed himself in the bible truly the God who I must worship also? It has the supreme God directly speaking in it (recorded by prophets). The Koran are words from "Angel Gabriel" recorded by propher Muhammad. In other religions and mythologies, the supreme God does not speak (he may be talked about). You can look at the bible as the supreme God speaking through the history of Israel.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 10:19:00 AM
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JStucki76
Posts: 114
Joined: 12/14/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
Hi All,
I was a Christian for 30 years, but I always had nagging, basic questions. As I began asking people these very basic, almost child like questions, I found that instead of wanting to be helpful and explain things to me in a logical way, they just got mad at me. Eventually this is what caused me to leave Christianity to begin with.
But I still have questions. I am not dogmatic in my beliefs at all. I will give up what I believe and accept your views in a heart beat as long as the information you give me is more logical then the information I already have. In fact, in my opinion, this is the stance that anyone who truly wishes to call themselves an intellectual must take.
So I thought I might come to the most popular internet Christian forum I could find and see if I could get these very basic questions answered, or if people would get mad that I dare ask them to begin with.
My first question is "Why do you believe the Bible is True?"
I put in bold face what I believe your problem is. I don't mind your question, I've asked it myself. And as others have already said, there is a wealth of writing on this topic by many different authors and thinkers.
Your problem is you insist on calling yourself an intellectual first, and you believe that this label forces you to approach scripture in a certain way. As many have said, if you look for reasons not to believe, you will find them. There's nothing wrong with being an intellectual per se. Many of the writers that have been recommended are intellectuals themselves. But they were willing to drop that label in order to find the truth. And until you are willing to leave everything you are behind, you won't find it. That, my friend, is why I would submit that in spite of your upbringing, you probably never really understood what it was all about and were probably never really a Christian.
I don't know what exactly you believe about God, or evolution, or what information you have now that ours needs to top in the realm of logic. If it's logic you're after, I will say that I think atheism to be one of the most illogical ideas ever devised by man, and evolution is full of holes like swiss cheese. I would add that I believe creation to be self evident and that the burden of proof falls on the evolutionist--who, as yet, has not delivered.
During the early days of Darwinian evolution, many of its proponents were open about why they believed it. They weren't convinced by scientific evidence. Rather, they adhered to it because of the philosophical ramifications; namely, that if there were no God, then they were not accountable to anyone for their actions and they could live as they pleased. Darwin was confident that further discoveries in science would support his claims. The more we've learned, however, especially in microbiology, the more problems arise with it.
I don't mean to bash you at all (I don't even know if you believe in evolution) but I do have a certain level of disdain for the position that logic rules on the non-christian side of the argument.
Some evidence that you may not have found. The Talmud records that 40 years before the temple was destroyed, the veil was torn. This would have been about A.D. 30, right about when Jesus died. This event is recorded in the gospels as well. The Jewish writers who wrote the Talmud have no explanation.
It's not really reasonable to expect a historian during Jesus' lifetime to have chronicled anything about him. He was an unimportant man in an unimportant part of the world. Historians at the time were writing about emperors and generals, not obscure rabbis. However, the emperor Claudius did refer to the empty tomb in a directive written to the governor and soldiers in the region, ostensibly to prevent any further such disturbances. He didn't necessarily believe in the resurrection, but it did verify the empty tomb.
There may be other explanations possible for the veil, as well as the other evidence that you found (but discounted). However, if you discount evidence simply on the basis of another explanation being possible, then:
1) That's not intellectually honest.
2) You're really asking for proof, not evidence. Proof is a funny word. It's darn near impossible to prove anything at all. I couldn't say, for example, that archaeology proves the bible is true. Rather, I could say that the preponderance of the evidence supports the bible rather than refuting it. If you look at ALL the evidence, it still doesn't PROVE anything, strictly speaking. But there's much more evidence in support of scripture than not.
P.S. As far as the myriad internet lists of contradictions in the bible, I've seen them. Technically they're not real contradictions, and they're pretty easily shredded.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 10:27:44 AM
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LivingParadox
Posts: 926
Joined: 2/28/2007
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First off, I haven't read the other posts so if I cover ground that's already been covered, forgive me. I know there are lots of apologitics out there that can cover many of your questions while I'm not that familiar with them as my faith isn't something I truly question as it's very solid. One such apologetic piece of literture that comes to mind is "The Case for Christ" which was written by an athesist set-out to disprove God and in the process convinced himself of the existence of our Maker.
As for me, my faith is much simplier in the way how does a baby knows to take the first breath when they are born. How the earth, sun, moon and all of creation perfectly fits together. Yes we live in a broken world as sin is in it...but to look at it not know God is unfathomable to me. I don't have to prove my faith is simply is. Based on your comments of being a christian for 30 years could I put out the thought maybe you were not a christian as much as followed the religion? I don't know your story or details but a lot of people fail to find Christ in their search for a religion...and they are two different things.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 11:12:07 AM
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kmangel
Posts: 443
Joined: 4/12/2005
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For me, I was raised to believe in the Bible. That didn't mean I believed or had any faith to speak of. It just meant I had a respect for the Bible. I tried to read it from time to time, but never could really get into it. I tried to read from the beginning and soon got bored.
About 11 years ago I had an experience of God that changed my life. I see my life as before that moment in time and after.
I had always wondered whether God was real, and if He was, did He love me or care about me? I had been told that I could never know for sure whether I was "good enough" to go to Heaven. I didn't have a very loving view of God. I saw Him as evaluating my performance. I had no clear picture of Jesus--why He came to live and die and what His life and death had to do with me.
Prior to 11 years ago I was beginning to be concerned about a family issue. I was really worried and when a person is really upset about something, out of control of a situation, they often will turn to God. This is what happened to me. I began to pray that God help my son. I was sitting at my kitchen table talking to my husband. I told him that there was something very much wrong with our son and I had been praying for God to help him. I also told my husband that I couldn't pray alone--that he needed to pray, too. Then I sensed something come over me. It pulsated down through my body, from my head down through to my feet. At the same time I "heard" these words in my mind say to me "If you really want Me to help you, go back to church." I had never had anything like this happen before to me, so I took notice! I said to my husband "We have done our sons a huge disservice not raising our boys to know and love God. We need to go back to church." I remember sitting down without any real mission and standing up with one! My husband suggested we visit a church we had been to once before and that began a journey to discovering Who God is, that He loves us and we came to also love Him. It was certainly a journey, but God was faithful in guiding and teaching us every step of the way.
Why do I believe the Bible is true? I believe God is the One that spoke to me that day at my kitchen table and He told me if I wanted Him to help me to go back to church. It was like God put in my heart a new desire--to know Him and to love Him. Believe me, the desire to know and love God was NOT there prior to that experience at the kitchen table. God is the One Who wooed me and drew me to Him. We all either respond or don't respond to His love. If it weren't for God first loving us, we would never come to love Him. The Bible teaches this truth and I've experienced it first hand. There's a lot that I've experienced in my walk with God these past 11 years (actually my whole life) that the Bible speaks about.
I've pondered why my faith began when it did and not earlier in my life, but what I believe is that God knew precisely the thing (person) that would soften my heart to where I would allow God to draw me to Him. Thank God for that, too! There's nothing like feeling and believing that God really does love and care for me as He loves and cares for all of us. He's a wonderful Father. I'm grateful I came to realize this truth. It was not one day too soon nor one day too late--it was precisely right--and I am forever grateful.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 11:45:33 AM
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chrisovery
Posts: 147
Joined: 10/6/2007
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here is some of the proof you asked for. since evolution was brought up in this, i will start with proof of evolution os false.
1. the word of god states that from dust we came to dust we will return. evolution states that we evolve into different species. i can video tape the decomposing of a body turning into dust. people that believe in evolution cant video tape any species turning into another.
2. they claim that the colorado river formed the gran canyon. there are parts of the grand canyon that the colorado river has never ran through. the other proof of this is if something is happening over a long period of time it leaves a smooth downhill slope. a rapid change of something because of something catostrophic it is not smooth but ruff and jagged and all that. noahs flood.
you can do the tests on this yourself at home.
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It is utterly impossible to govern a nation with out the Lord Jesus Christ and the bible.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 11:45:37 AM
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Wild-Rose
Posts: 426
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
B/c the Holy Spirit confirms it in my heart. He says, yes, this is true. So I know that I know that I know that I know the word of God is true.
Ok, I'm not trying to be condescending, so don't take this the wrong way. I'm only being honest. Basically, your telling me that you believe it's true because a ghost told you it was true?" Can you imagine if you asked a Scientologist why he believes Scientology is true and he responded is was because a ghost told him it was. Be honest. What would you think of him?
You asked a question and people are trying to answer and explain. When we talk about the Holy Spirit certainly you must know we are talking about The Lord God Almighty. For you to blow it off and call Him "a ghost" I would say yes, you are being condescending. I was also raised in the Assembly of God, so I know that you were taught about the Three in One. You know that the Holy Spirit is God.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 12:34:28 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 138
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
We could discuss your comments regarding Josephus being a forgery, seriously it was one of me main themes during my later university studies. Treat the Gospels just like you would any other historical document. Subject it to the same criteria. Treat it just like Ceasar's Gallic Wars, Josephus' Jewish Wars, or Tacitus' Annals of Imperial Rome.
If you accept them as generally accurate, on what basis would you discount the claims/reliability of the Gospels?
The more important point is that historians will accept accounts as true for items that have .0001% of the backing that an account in Scripture has, but they ignore the latter.
In all my years of discussing with skeptics, atheists, agnostics, etc - those that know and are not ignorant to such evidential standings for the Bible, will acknowledge that the Gospels offer us accurate historical information, but they out-of-hand reject the idea of miracles.
This issue goes beyond the matter of historical evidence and shifts to the worldview one will allow. If you reject belief in God/Jesus and the possibility of miracles outright, then no amount of evidence will persuade you to believe otherwise. ....Exactly. The unbeliever starts from the position that the resurrection of Christ is impossible as a historical event. Under these conditions no amount of argument could convince them otherwise. They reject the supernatural now and they reject these events 2000 yrs ago as actual history. Kinda arrogant...don't ya think? Even when Christ performed miracles many did not believe. The crowds got bigger and they expected a magic show what they got from Christ was riddles in the form of parables to keep them in their unbelief. In his book Evidence for Christianity McDowell records 7 pagan accounts regarding the historicity of Jesus in which the Same is described as a magician or sorcerer. The darkness that enveloped the land at the time of His crucifixion is explained away as a solar eclipse. His virgin birth is explained away by referring to Mary as an adulteress and is alluded to in John 8 in which the critics of Jesus repeatedly asked Him...who is Your father? In John 8:41 the critics of Jesus tell Him ''We were not born of fornication." The insinuation being Jesus was mamzer (illegitimate) and in accordance to Duet.23:2 probably had no business in the Temple...let alone to refer to the Temple as My Father's house! They more or less was calling His mother a whore in public and He had no business there. The critics of Jesus hated Him with a passion and wanted Him dead and gone. This is not myth, this sounds like actual history accurately recorded. Who could make this stuff up? If the unbeliever comes on to this site and dictates the terms by which debate will take place then the Christian is probably engaged in an exercise in futility. What do they believe and let them prove it to us.
Israel ceases to exist as a nation in AD 70. No where directly mentioned in the New Testament but is mentioned in the early Christian writings which puts the bulk of the new as recorded before AD 70. Even secular historian AN Wilson concedes to that in his bio on Paul. 1878 years later and bam Israel becomes a nation again! What other country has done that? Huh? All recorded in Ezek.37. Matthew Henry in his commentary of Ezek 37 refers to the future regathering of Israel to its homeland in 1706 (?) when Israel did not exist. That is just one account. There are more. How did they know? How did Matthew Henry know that Israel would once again become a nation? Huh? I could go on and on. The problem is not with the evidence and never has been.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 1:22:28 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
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quote:
My first question is "Why do you believe the Bible is True?"
1. Because the Author of this Book is God (2 Tim. 3:16) and it is God who caused His prophets and apostles to write down precisely what is written (2 Pet. 1:19-21).
2. Because the Bible is self-authenticating, in that it does not contradict itself, even though the writings span a period of possibly 2,000 years.
3. Because it has the ring of truth. Prophecies written hundreds or thousands of years before they happened have actually been fulfilled, particularly the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Only God can reveal the end from the beginning.
4. Because it is both a historical and theological record of Gods dealings with men, and there is nothing false or misleading in it.
It would appear from your post that you went to people for answers instead of going to the Bible itself and to itès Author. If you are sincere in wanting to know the truth, then you should also sincerely commit yourself to a serious and in-depth study of the Scriptures. These are words of spirit and life.
Note: You will see typographical errors in this post. They can/t seem to be corrected (such as the apostrophe showing as a forward slash).
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 1:30:16 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 1589
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
Hi All,
I was a Christian for 30 years, but I always had nagging, basic questions. As I began asking people these very basic, almost child like questions, I found that instead of wanting to be helpful and explain things to me in a logical way, they just got mad at me. Eventually this is what caused me to leave Christianity to begin with.
But I still have questions. I am not dogmatic in my beliefs at all. I will give up what I believe and accept your views in a heart beat as long as the information you give me is more logical then the information I already have. In fact, in my opinion, this is the stance that anyone who truly wishes to call themselves an intellectual must take.
So I thought I might come to the most popular internet Christian forum I could find and see if I could get these very basic questions answered, or if people would get mad that I dare ask them to begin with.
My first question is "Why do you believe the Bible is True?"
First of all - I am sorry that you have been disappointed with 'Christians'. I'm sure we can all tell some stories about such and perhaps we too have caused disappointment. 
In response to your question regarding why do you agree the Bible is True? I believe the Bible is true because the Holy Spirit has often taken the Words from the Bible and quickened them in my soul.
To explain this more simply (I hope), I have heard the Word of God (or read it) and on occasions, it is as if the Bible has discerned me, e.g. uncovered something wrong in my life, showed me what I was thinking, etc...... and the Holy Spirit power behind the Words has left me in no doubt that the Lord is speaking.
Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 1:49:22 PM
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paperbox
Posts: 4
Joined: 11/15/2008
Status: offline
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How do you know that there is air? can you see it? then how do you know it is there? do you believe that without air your lungs would collaspe and you will die? How do you know? because God can not lie. He said His word is true and that He inspired men to write the words in a book, that is enough for me. Paul tells us to study the word of God for ourselves. He (God) said My people perish for lack of knowledge. If we lack wisdom and understanding we can ask God who gives to all. If people get mad with you for asking questions then maybe its because they have not taken the time to study in order to feed you what you hunger and thirst for, they can not give you what they do not have. You be encouraged and CONTINUE TO ASK YOUR QUESTIONS Some give the word of God, others water the word of God, but only GOD gives the increase. be blessed
quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
Hi All,
I was a Christian for 30 years, but I always had nagging, basic questions. As I began asking people these very basic, almost child like questions, I found that instead of wanting to be helpful and explain things to me in a logical way, they just got mad at me. Eventually this is what caused me to leave Christianity to begin with.
But I still have questions. I am not dogmatic in my beliefs at all. I will give up what I believe and accept your views in a heart beat as long as the information you give me is more logical then the information I already have. In fact, in my opinion, this is the stance that anyone who truly wishes to call themselves an intellectual must take.
So I thought I might come to the most popular internet Christian forum I could find and see if I could get these very basic questions answered, or if people would get mad that I dare ask them to begin with.
My first question is "Why do you believe the Bible is True?"
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 3:54:40 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 11arrows
Josephus has been found to be a forgery first of all, and secondly Josephus was not even born yet when Jesus died. That's really the BEST evidence? A known forgery from a guy not even born when Jesus was alive? Seriously?
Any of us who has some training KNOWS Josephus was born after Jesus died. No one is saying he wasn't. I know WWII happened but I wasn't born then - it's a historical fact that is acknowledged by people who've talked to people who were eye-witnesses and that left credible records about it after the eye witnesses were dead. Historical veracity is what you're looking for, and the time difference doesn't automatically discount credibility (or you can throw out every history book that's about things that happened before you could talk).
To be fair, 11Arrows, how do you know Josephus was a forgery? He has been accepted by biblical scholars for 1800 years, which means the early ones probably knew him and could tear down his report if it was blantly false and the later ones could have found discrepancies to rule out his believability (there are rules of evidence in courts of law and in scholarship). Did you check your sources about him as vigorously as you have on the Bible and Jesus? Where did you hear this, and was there a conflict of interest from your source?
I say that, because the Bible says that people who shipwreck their faith do that because they lost their good conscience. They find a sin they don't want to get rid of, and to make themselves feel better about the conflict in their minds and souls, they boot Christianity and find "facts" about why the Bible, etc., isn't true. Those "facts" probably come from other people with bad consciences. John Calvin said the loss of good conscience is the mother of heresy.
Your interest seems to be in Apologetics. There's an excellent book on it called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. It's even in outline form, but there's a simpler, story version called "More Than a Carpenter." This was the primo apologetical work from the last century, and you won't be able to say you honestly disbelieve the Bible, God, etc. unless you've read it and find it false. So check it out.
Just as a teaser, Josh said there are three ways to discern if the Bible is true; here are two of them (because I can't remember the third. You find it and tell me, OK? It's the Bibliographical one):
1 - does it conflict with itself anywhere (and with over 25 authors spanning 4000 years and occupations as diverse as sheepherding and being a king, it all hangs together in one mind set: God's redemption. Try that with 5 friends deciding where to go for dinner and see what you get).
2 - External evidence: there are more copies of early manuscripts (MSS) for the Bible than there are for Julius Caesar or even Shakespeare (which is less than 500 years ago), and with fewer "errors" than either. An embarrassment of riches. Comparing the major MSS we have, they are 98.3% identical, and the differences are in spelling (one letter off in a name) or punctation. There are no differences in the areas that deal with major doctrine.
What other people have done with the message in the Bible - the Apostles went to their deaths without recanting their belief that Jesus was God. That's called "death bed testimony" in a court of law because dying people have a last chance to tell the truth and their words are accepted as fact.
I hope this helps. Go get Josh's book.
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Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 4:32:47 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kevfisher
I challenge you to pray this simple prayer:
"Lord God, If you are real I ask you to reveal the truth of the bible to me. I am struggling to understand the truth of the bible and have been shown alot of different information that has made me question whether the bible is really the 'word of God'. IF it is real I ask that you confirm it for me so that i may know you."
I believe that God will answer that prayer for you. We humans do not have all of the answers that people are seaching for but God, and only God does.
I hope you give it a shot! If God isnt real it wont hurt at all, but if God is real you may get the answer you are looking for (if you are really searching for the answer)!
Im praying for you!
Ok, I'm being completely sincere and honest here. I said this prayer twice. And I said it VERY open minded. I know you people will say "you must not have" but I really did. And nothing happened. I really want this ghost to speak to me. I mean that with all my heart. If their is a talking ghost who can tell me whats true and what not, I want to hear him more then anything on earth.
It just seems like, according you you guys, if the talking ghost doesn't choose you to talk to, then your unlucky. Am I expected to believe in the ghost before he will talk to me? If so how am I suppose to believe a ghost is real before I have any proof he is real? It just doesn't make any sense.
edited by moderator TOS 5
< Message edited by armydude -- 11/15/2008 8:32:15 PM >
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 4:39:06 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
The evidence is there...don't come on to Christian sites and try to sell that swill u rejected Christ because the evidence is simply not there.
ok, if the evidence is their, what is it? I have read every single book mentioned here, and have independently researched the claims in each of these books. Have You? People stop telling me the evidence is their and I should go find it. I have looked, I didn't find it, so if your so convinced it exists, just tell me, specifically. Don't pawn me off on some author you all really admire. If you really believe the bible is the word of God, you should know ALL about it. You should know every details on why you believe its true and the evidence to back it up. I mean what person in their right mind would believe the bible is truly the word of the one and only god, and then not turn around and learn everything they can about it in detail? It seems like every single person on here has no idea what they are talking about, and instead wishes to pass the buck to Josh McDowell so he can explain it to me.
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RE: Former Christian has questions about the Bible - 11/15/2008 4:42:57 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
Status: offline
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[/quote]
My friend the truth is that the Bible is spiritual in nature and can only be understood and believed by those whose minds have been quickened by the Spirit of God. As Anselm said..."faith must precede knowledge".
[/quote]
Ok if this is true, what evidence do you have that this is true? Just because you believe its true it not an answer. If your saying that no one can b | | |
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