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ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

This question is inspired by a thread in the M & E folder called "Did she ask for it". The question goes: If a woman is dressed provocatively and was assaulted, did she ask for it? If you want to join in the discussion, and you're not afraid to wander in the M & E folder, it'shere. Don't worry, we'll come and get you if you get stuck there, lol!

Anyway, my question is what do you men consider to be sexually provocative attire? There's another question in the She says folder but I want to hear what men has to say as well.

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ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

This question is inspired by a thread in the M & E folder called "Did she ask for it". The question goes: If a woman is dressed provocatively and was assaulted, did she ask for it? If you want to join in the discussion, and you're not afraid to wander in the M & E folder, it'shere. Don't worry, we'll come and get you if you get stuck there, lol!

Anyway, my question is what do you men consider to be sexually provocative attire? There's another question in the She says folder but I want to hear what men has to say as well.

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ORIGINAL: John_O
For example, a swimsuit, even a bikini, may not be provocative on the beach, but a pair of shorts and a top that cover much much more may be provocative at the mall. KWIM?

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Whether I find a woman's attire 'provocative' or not is based more on her behavior and my perception of her purpose in wearing it than it is the actual clothing itself.

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ORIGINAL: benelchi
I will agree that behavior plays a part, but some clothing is provocative regardless of the behavior.

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ORIGINAL: stamper_ben

The question for men is - Are you going to be provoked? Whether its the itsy bitsy bikini or the flannel nightgown, what's in your head?

Sure, the eye is going to be drawn to any number of situations. What then are you going to let happen?

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ORIGINAL: mrtigger

Clothing that is tight/skimpy/revealing I usually will not find provacative if there is a logical explanation of why it might be needed for functional reasons. A swimsuit at the beach is worn for functional reasons. It does not convey any other intent to me and thus I do not generally find women in bikinis to be provacative.

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez
What concerns me on this issue is really more motive than results. However, women tend to get so defensive about it, that I usually feel like too many of my sisters in Christ simply do not care about either. I know there are women out there who do dress with an aim towards modesty, but there is such a defense of "I can wear whatever I want" that it seems like more Christian women are trying to dress to look hot and sexy than are dressing to be modest.

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ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

Do you guys think that there should be a standard of modesty that should be imposed on people that works, or serve in the church? The reason that I'm asking is because I belong to a huge seeker sensitive church. MOst of the members/church goers are very modern. When I look at the band members, I cringe at times because of the way they're dressed. I'm not a man, but I think like a man at times, and see things from men's perspective. When I see the female band members (and most of them are very attractive) standing in front of thousands of people, dancing, while dressed in really tight clothing, I feel almost embarrased. If I as a woman can see these things are very distracting to men, how do men who are known to be very visual, actually see them? Would you guys be distracted?

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ORIGINAL: Benelchi

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Why do we never speak about self control like we do modesty? I remember one time in church the pastor was speaking of the blouses, etc as you did. The lady next to me was a very attractive women, and she was dressed very modestly. There was nothing improper about her at all, and yet as we were exiting church - you could feel the men's eyes upon her. I wasn't HER and I felt it! lol and I was next to her!

No one wants to speak as loudly about that part. lol I always wondered WHY! When you have counterdictions like that - that as well is very present - it could also play a part in this discussion.

The reality is I have never in my entire life attended a church that condoned, ignored, or even remained silent when speaking to men about these issues. If I ever encountered a church that did, I would be at the pastors door that day and if it was not corrected I would leave the church over it. Any church that condoned men lusting after woman for any reason is teaching things that are outside of the word of God. I don't know where you have attended church, but I assure you that such ungodly teaching is not prevalent in most conservative evangelical churches!

In my own church over the last 9 years I have had two significant issues with the lack of a woman's modesty. The first was shortly after I began attending the church, and I wish I could say that I sufficiently addressed the situation, but the reality is I let it slide. A Christian woman who was part of the class leadership team, was always very flirty touching at times that were inappropriate (nothing blantent) but arm touches, back touches, etc.. that were just over the line. One day in class she approached me (while waring a low cut scoop top) while I was sitting in my seat. While facing me she bent over forward at the waist (legs straight) to come to eye level; as she did this her top dropped away from her body and left nothing to the imagination. I had to turn my head away because in that position I could not look at her face and not see everything else. In retrospect I should have done more than just turn away, but I was so shocked I was speechless. For a man, this is as significant an issue as an inappropriate touch is to a woman, and I left church that day feeling violated. I asked several women that evening if this could have possibly been an accident and there response was that when a woman does this she knows exactly what she is doing. For those women here who seem to not "get it", I to this very day can remember the woman, the color and type of her top, where I was seated, etc... And I immediately and consciously choose to guard my heart and eyes when I was confronted with this, I choose not to sin! A second issue happened about 6 months ago, when a woman who was singing a solo on the stage, came on to the stage with a very low cut top, exposing far too much to every one in the sanctuary. I did approach an elder as soon as the service ended, and it was handled; this woman was told the the dress was inappropriate and that she would not be permitted to sing again if she was dressed in the manor. Do you understand at all the dilemma a man faces when a woman in church is on the platform in a provocative dress? Do we really expect all of the men in church to look down at the ground so the women can "minister" on the platform dressed like this?

I do understand that there are huge difficulties in dealing with modesty and women. What are the standards? How do we handle immodestly dressed visitors? How do we handle situations with the youth when the parents do not support standards of modesty? There are not easy answers for many of these questions, but I think the church has far too often failed because it is easier to ignore the issue than to honestly seek answer to these questions.

Some of my personal feelings:

The Christian woman of the church should demonstrate modesty in a way that reflects their relationship with Christ both in the church and in the world; people should be able to see a difference between how they dress and how the world dresses. The should be the salt and light to the women of the world who are given the false message that their value is measured only by their sexual attractiveness.

The church should never permit a woman to minister in front of the congregation whose dress does not reflect biblical values.

Those woman who are visiting should never be confronted, shamed or shunned because of their dress no matter how inappropriate (unless it is so inappropriate that it doesn't even meet the world's standards for decency). In the church, this is a circumstance in which men should demonstrate Godly self control as they would do in the unchristian world around them. As a church, our focus should be reaching these women's hearts with the good news of the Gospel; it should not be about forcing them to conform to our standards of decency.

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ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

Do you guys think that there should be a standard of modesty that should be imposed on people that works, or serve in the church?

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The reason that I'm asking is because I belong to a huge seeker sensitive church. MOst of the members/church goers are very modern. When I look at the band members, I cringe at times because of the way they're dressed. I'm not a man, but I think like a man at times, and see things from men's perspective. When I see the female band members (and most of them are very attractive) standing in front of thousands of people, dancing, while dressed in really tight clothing, I feel almost embarrased. If I as a woman can see these things are very distracting to men, how do men who are known to be very visual, actually see them? Would you guys be distracted?

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If you want someone to treat you like a worldly woman, than dress like one. If you want someone to treat you well, then dress well.

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What I wonder is "Do women who are exposing their cleavage (at church) really think it is attractive to Christian men?" I mean, use the proper bait for what you're trying to catch. If you want someone to treat you like a worldly woman, than dress like one. If you want someone to treat you well, then dress well.

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ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Sure, the eye is going to be drawn to any number of situations. What then are you going to let happen?