RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories more legit than the others around the world?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/22/2009 12:10:52 AM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
It always amazes me that agno-atheists don't realize Christians warn them of hell precisely because of unconditional love!
but too often, it sounds like conditional love. people here are smart. even if we're not aware of it, readers can pick up themes in our posts. some of us spend too much time venting about our feelings -getting mad at people who disagree with us, or taking personal offense when people don't understand our position or our arguments. even if we say we are speaking as believers, the theme is us, us, us. our feelings, not God's. our offense, not God's. so when we start talking about hellfire, it doesn't sound like we're talking about God's judgment. it sounds like one more way we're venting about our feelings. it sounds like love is being offered on the condition that people start agreeing with us. when we speak of unconditional love, we have to exhibit the fruits of the spirit when we do it.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/22/2009 9:27:11 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Ah, but there's the paradox.
A human parent who has unconditional love would never contemplate - let alone create - a place like he for those to whom that love was bestowed. No paradox at all, julie, when one truly understands the Nature of God. Why don't you start a new thread in the appropriate folder if you're really interested in discussing the sovereignty, justice, and love of God.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/22/2009 10:08:16 AM
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juliebme
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I apologize Mark.
But I really have no interest in starting a thread on neither the "justice" nor the "love" of God - both of which I find incomprehensively horrifying.
And I certainly don't want to have that conversation with those who claim to know the true nature of God. I'm old and don't necessarily want to spend my time getting steamed up over the misuse of words whose meanings hold some sense of majesty to me.
I'd much rather bathe in the amusement I glean from some of the posters.
Some of it is good fun indeed.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/22/2009 10:36:55 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I apologize Mark.
But I really have no interest in starting a thread on neither the "justice" nor the "love" of God - both of which I find incomprehensively horrifying. julie, if you really find God's Love "horrifying", then it's not me you need to apologize to... 
Sorry I won't be participating in your "fun" anymore. Have a nice day, julie.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/23/2009 11:02:25 PM
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Kath
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/26/2009 10:03:13 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
One of the distinctive features within Genesis and Exodus that points to their source being revelation rather than creaivity of humanity is that the comperable literature of other cultures at that time is rarely self-critical. It tends to make heroes and support them unconditionally, or define things in such a way as it suits a discernable agenda -- that sort of thing.
In contrast, the Hebrew documents are remarkably fickle towards heroes, and the 'agenda' of the teaching naratives isn't to the advantage of anybody who might have been involved with authorship. The only way they make sense from a "Who's trying to prove what?" stand-point is if it is the God being discribed that is trying to prove something, to teach something, to discribe something. That adds weight to the perspective of them being revealed rather than created, because of this theocentric style of conceptualization.
The Qu'ran and the hadith seem to ocassionally imply that the prophet Mohammed was a human being capable of making mistakes, and doesn't really cover up some of the jihad that early Muslim's participated in (whether this was offensive of defensive is up for debate.) Does that make Islam true?
Heck, the heroes and god's of several world myths (like those of the Greeks most famously) are terribly flawed people who make alls sorts of mistakes like sleeping around, getting drunk, and abducting women to make them their wives. Does the fact that these people are sometimes potrayed in an unflattering prove the truth of these tales?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/27/2009 10:53:25 AM
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bolt.
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Greeks did not consider those actions 'mistakes'... and Isalam defintiley has a sense of absolute approval of their prophet.
I did not intend to present a proof, and I do not belive that such indicators prove anything. I sincerely assess those traits of the Hebrew Scriptures to be strong indicators of an 'outside perspective' being the source of inspiration for those Scriptures.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/7/2010 6:15:20 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ohioman1972
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: brujaq
The Bible I read is about the Son of God , It states that's "these signs shall follow those who believe " I have witnessed and been a part of these very signs and much more through the power of God by the God of the Bible .. This is testimony of Jesus the Christ and Son of God .. This is what makes the Genesis flood true . If you don,t believe it ask a Mormon or a Muslim when you get to hell ..
I've found that since I've started approaching some of these topics with logic and skeptical inquiry I've received a couple of warnings about hellfire and judgement. Interesting.
Stephen... you find it interesting to find warnings about hellfire and judgement on a Christian forum, after expressing your doubts and skepticism about the contents of the bible?
Would you find it interesting to find critics of Rush Limbaugh on moveon.org?
No it's not that, it's just that I feel like often times when I have honest skepticism and ask questions that I feel are logically grounded I get fire and brimstone responses rather than well reasoned responses. This isn't just here, but in my every day life as well.
Anyway, I felt the need to bump this thread after watching a certain youtube video about bubbles of perception. That Mormons have a bubble, Muslims do, and that Christians do. Is it possible that we can all see the absurdity in other people's supernatural beliefs (Joseph Smith's gold tablets for example) but not in ours (a talking snake.)
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/8/2010 1:34:24 AM
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RSchorne
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Indeed.
The adherents if history's thousands of different faiths are all certain if the veracity of their own faith.
And more precisely, their own particular individual interpretation of that faith.
The eternal problem is, of course, Christians don't take the Qu'ran seriously, Moslems don't take the creation myths of the Hindus seriously, Buddhists don't take the various Dreamtime myths of the Australian Aborigines seriously and the Shintu don't take the bible seriously.
If everyone's certain their faith is correct (in fact, the majority of posters here don't believe the veracity of the bible, they know it, just like the jihadists know the Qu'ran is correct) and that everyone else's is just another myth, why should I believe one above another?
< Message edited by RSchorne -- 2/8/2010 3:20:01 AM >
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/10/2010 1:04:47 PM
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Ohioman1972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
Indeed.
The adherents if history's thousands of different faiths are all certain if the veracity of their own faith.
And more precisely, their own particular individual interpretation of that faith.
The eternal problem is, of course, Christians don't take the Qu'ran seriously, Moslems don't take the creation myths of the Hindus seriously, Buddhists don't take the various Dreamtime myths of the Australian Aborigines seriously and the Shintu don't take the bible seriously.
If everyone's certain their faith is correct (in fact, the majority of posters here don't believe the veracity of the bible, they know it, just like the jihadists know the Qu'ran is correct) and that everyone else's is just another myth, why should I believe one above another?
The canned response is: Your own personal choice. We absolutely can believe the wrong thing. The truth will remain the truth no matter what the perception of the truth is, and no matter what the presentation of the truth is. It cannot be changed. We will all either find out one day that we were right or wrong in our beliefs, or we will simply cease to exist.
I don't see any other logical outcome. The authors of the Bible, Qu'ran, Watchtower magazine, the Vedas, the Book of Shadows, etc were either writing lies or truth, or even partial truths.
There are some similarities in most religions, some more than others. Can we use the argument that because there are so many religions, and they all can't be right, that they must all be wrong? Or is it better if one cannot make up their mind between them that the best option is to believe nothing?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/10/2010 4:47:22 PM
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Dante_Alighieri
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No religion can be known to be true. Only believed. I don't believe in any religion because there is no objective, reasonable evidence that suggests any of them are true.
Dante
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/11/2010 7:41:52 AM
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Ohioman1972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dante_Alighieri
No religion can be known to be true. Only believed. I don't believe in any religion because there is no objective, reasonable evidence that suggests any of them are true.
Dante
Faith is a wonderful thing to experience. It is something that cannot be weighed and no formula can explain it. We'd all like a burning bush, but that would eliminate faith.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/11/2010 7:48:17 AM
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drmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dante_Alighieri
No religion can be known to be true. Only believed. I don't believe in any religion because there is no objective, reasonable evidence that suggests any of them are true.
Dante
Are you really that naive, D_A? You are clinging desperately to your relgion of naturalistic humanism and your evolutionary worldview drips of it constantly. I'm not sure what is sadder - those who believe falsehood or those who do not even know what they believe...
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/11/2010 9:02:53 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dante_Alighieri
No religion can be known to be true. Only believed. I don't believe in any religion because there is no objective, reasonable evidence that suggests any of them are true.
Dante
Is there any objective, reasonable evidence that suggests that all of them are false?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/11/2010 12:08:20 PM
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RSchorne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ohioman1972
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
Indeed.
The adherents if history's thousands of different faiths are all certain if the veracity of their own faith.
And more precisely, their own particular individual interpretation of that faith.
The eternal problem is, of course, Christians don't take the Qu'ran seriously, Moslems don't take the creation myths of the Hindus seriously, Buddhists don't take the various Dreamtime myths of the Australian Aborigines seriously and the Shintu don't take the bible seriously.
If everyone's certain their faith is correct (in fact, the majority of posters here don't believe the veracity of the bible, they know it, just like the jihadists know the Qu'ran is correct) and that everyone else's is just another myth, why should I believe one above another?
The canned response is: Your own personal choice. We absolutely can believe the wrong thing. The truth will remain the truth no matter what the perception of the truth is, and no matter what the presentation of the truth is. It cannot be changed. We will all either find out one day that we were right or wrong in our beliefs, or we will simply cease to exist.
That's fine except for the idea that you can choose what you believe.
I'm not convinced that worshippers in other religions worship their gods because they are evil or blind themselves to "Truth".
They do so in good conscience and in all sincerity.
Likewise, those who are not convinced of the veracity of religious myths and dogmas may also do so in all good conscience.
How can you believe something that makes no sense to you?
The canned response is: I can't.
And it's not a choice.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/11/2010 2:06:08 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dante_Alighieri
No religion can be known to be true.
Now that is a fascinating statement! If you're actually qualified to make such a statement, then you ought to write a book and teach at a university! Or perhaps this is just what you believe, and it's not actually something that can be known.
quote:
Only believed. I don't believe in any religion because there is no objective, reasonable evidence that suggests any of them are true.
Dante
A religion can be known to be true, or at least the writ of a religion can be demonstrated to be divine in origin. If the message is divine, then the message is as reliable as the divine being that wrote it.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/11/2010 3:25:32 PM
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Ohioman1972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ohioman1972
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
Indeed.
The adherents if history's thousands of different faiths are all certain if the veracity of their own faith.
And more precisely, their own particular individual interpretation of that faith.
The eternal problem is, of course, Christians don't take the Qu'ran seriously, Moslems don't take the creation myths of the Hindus seriously, Buddhists don't take the various Dreamtime myths of the Australian Aborigines seriously and the Shintu don't take the bible seriously.
If everyone's certain their faith is correct (in fact, the majority of posters here don't believe the veracity of the bible, they know it, just like the jihadists know the Qu'ran is correct) and that everyone else's is just another myth, why should I believe one above another?
The canned response is: Your own personal choice. We absolutely can believe the wrong thing. The truth will remain the truth no matter what the perception of the truth is, and no matter what the presentation of the truth is. It cannot be changed. We will all either find out one day that we were right or wrong in our beliefs, or we will simply cease to exist.
That's fine except for the idea that you can choose what you believe.
I'm not convinced that worshippers in other religions worship their gods because they are evil or blind themselves to "Truth".
They do so in good conscience and in all sincerity.
Likewise, those who are not convinced of the veracity of religious myths and dogmas may also do so in all good conscience.
How can you believe something that makes no sense to you?
The canned response is: I can't.
And it's not a choice.
Have you ever sincerely attempted to address the God of the author of Genesis on your own?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/12/2010 1:19:49 AM
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RSchorne
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Yes.
I used to sincerely believe that Christ was my saviour and believed I had a personal relationship with him.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/12/2010 10:52:07 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dante_Alighieriquote:
A religion can be known to be true, or at least the writ of a religion can be demonstrated to be divine in origin. If the message is divine, then the message is as reliable as the divine being that wrote it.
How could this be proven?
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 2/13/2010 4:40:57 PM >
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/13/2010 4:34:41 AM
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Dante_Alighieri
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quote:
Faith is a wonderful thing to experience. It is something that cannot be weighed and no formula can explain it. We'd all like a burning bush, but that would eliminate faith.
Faith is a futile attempt to justify irrational beliefs without evidence. It is the perfect argument to skepticism without the need to look further into one's own beliefs. Why do you belief? "Oh well I have faith."
Well that certainly negates any rational thinking.
Faith is the breeding ground for ignorance.
quote:
Are you really that naive, D_A? You are clinging desperately to your relgion of naturalistic humanism and your evolutionary worldview drips of it constantly.
I hate all humanity. Hardly a humanist, no?
quote:
Is there any objective, reasonable evidence that suggests that all of them are false?
Claims require support, lack of claims do not. I do not claim to know if a god exists or not. However, there is substantial evidence to suggest the Judeo-Christian religions are false. If they are not false, then they are a far cry from what any fundamentalist believes.
quote:
Now that is a fascinating statement! If you're actually qualified to make such a statement, then you ought to write a book and teach at a university! Or perhaps this is just what you believe, and it's not actually something that can be known.
The supernatural cannot, by definition, be objective verified.
quote:
A religion can be known to be true, or at least the writ of a religion can be demonstrated to be divine in origin. If the message is divine, then the message is as reliable as the divine being that wrote it.
Wrong.
How would you objectively assert "divine" with regards to religious text?
Furthermore, what makes a text reliable just even if proven "divine"?
Hmmm.... Perhaps a subjective notion that "divine" equals "true."
quote:
Have you ever sincerely attempted to address the God of the author of Genesis on your own?
Prove your god wrote it.
Dante
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/13/2010 9:51:58 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The supernatural cannot, by definition, be objective verified. Nor can the supernatural, by definition, be objectively disproven. But that doesn't seem to register with you uniformitarian naturalists one iota... 
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/13/2010 12:49:51 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The supernatural cannot, by definition, be objective verified. Nor can the supernatural, by definition, be objectively disproven. But that doesn't seem to register with you uniformitarian naturalists one iota...
But it does register. I'll tell you what doesn't register. How is it that creationists, knowing that the supernatural cannot be proven or disproven, act as though creationism should be treated as science.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/13/2010 1:22:17 PM
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drmark
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quote:
How is it that creationists, knowing that the supernatural cannot be proven or disproven, act as though creationism should be treated as science. How is it that evolutionists, knowing that the evolution cannot be proven or disproven, act as though evolutionism should be treated as science?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/13/2010 3:51:31 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
How is it that creationists, knowing that the supernatural cannot be proven or disproven, act as though creationism should be treated as science. How is it that evolutionists, knowing that the evolution cannot be proven or disproven, act as though evolutionism should be treated as science?
(Evolutionism???)
Oh, no! You can't turn this around. A violation of the nested hierarchy would disprove evolution.
You admit that the supernatural cannot be proven or disproven. Shall I assume by your feeble attempt to avoid answering the direct question that you have no answer.
I'd really like a direct answer to a direct question. So again, I ask "How is it that creationists, knowing that the supernatural cannot be proven or disproven, act as though creationism should be treated as science?"
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