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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/29/2010 1:26:03 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I agree with the verses from Hoshea (Hosea), and I can even accept the possibility of (1 "day" [yowm] = 1000 years) as an explanation for the "two-day" gap, although I cringe at such equations being yanked out of context (II Pet. 3:8; Ps. 90:4) for that purpose. (That's just DANGEROUS, theologically speaking!), but to all the rest of that I say, "Hogwash." Again, you make an unfounded statement as though it was a fact:
What's up with that? You're using verses (specifically Dan. 11:5-6) that have already been fulfilled in the person of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
Are you sure the 1,000 years that Peter covers does not apply to events in the future, almost like Peter was giving us a prophecy rather than a history lesson? In the future those verses would apply to the Day of the Lord when speaking only about the wrath of God. It takes a few hours to pour out the vials, in those hours Satan is chained for a 1,000 years. LONG PAUSE. and the the wrath continues until the lake holds all that are to be sent there. In that instance something is called 'a day' but actual time from start to finish (of wrath) is a 1,000 years (plus what is called Satan's little season). The whole time of actual wrath is still within the time we call one day. That is the 1,000 years is equal to one day.
The best reference to one day is in relation to Judgment Day, since there are a lot of people being judged that Day it could last as long as what we now call 1,000 years. That is the one day is equal to a 1,000 years.
Wayne, now I think you're just being argumentative to be argumentative! Do you find it fun just to disagree to be disagreeing? (Or is it "to be disagreeable?") All the while I was growing up until I started questioning things in Bible college, for 20 years, I've never known ANYONE who claimed a pretribulational rapture to equate the seven Bowl Judgments with the Millennium! NEVER! And, I was a PK to an Independent, Bible-believing, Fellowship Baptist preacher! No, the seven Bowl Judgments were the last judgments to occur WITHIN the "seven-years of tribulation" BEFORE the Messiah returned and established His millennial reign. (I'm speaking like a pre-trib.) In point of fact, I can't accept that the Bowl Judgments are related AT ALL to the Millennium! I really think that's just WAY out there! It would take some serious twisting of Scripture to come up with THAT one!
No, Peter's use of II Pet. 3:8 is NOT an equation; what he was trying to communicate is that time, whether it seems like too much or too little to us, is never a limitation for God. Furthermore, his point was that God is not willing that any should perish and is patient with us! Look at the verse again IN CONTEXT:
2 Peter 3:1-13
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
Verse 9 explains verse 8: "One day (with the Lord) is like a THOUSAND YEARS!" I.e., God can get a thousand years' worth of work done in a single day, when He wishes it. ...And, "a thousand years are like a single day." I.e., God can take as much time as He'd like to accomplish something that we might think should be done in a single day or that we WISH He would accomplish in a single day! He spans eternity, and He can remember what happened a thousand years ago like it was yesterday! So, Peter said, "The LORD is not lazy regarding His promise like some people would consider laziness, but He is PATIENT with us, not willing that anyone should perish, but that everyone should come to repentance!" What Peter was saying was that you and I might think He's taking too long to get His promises fulfilled, but He's BETTER than that! He's taking His time to be sure everyone who's going to come to repentance has the chance to come to repentance!
He's NOT using verse 8 to establish some sort of figurative equation so we can take the "days" mentioned in prophecy and transform them into thousand-year periods! That's NOT his intent!
Verse 10, then, counters the effect of what he just argued to prevent the pendulum swinging too far the other way. He's assuring the readers that, even though God is taking His time as He sees fit, make no mistake, JUDGMENT WILL COME when He's good and ready! It WILL come and will come in HIS timing, not before and not after! Therefore, we are not to take Him for granted and say, "Oh, He's too much of a Loving God to ever sit in judgment on people!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Yes Roy, I am going to challenge you again on the person you brought up. If his deeds were before the end of the 70 weeks (before the 69th was complete) then he should be covered in the verses about the little horn that arises after Alex is finished. Between the time the 70 weeks were introduced who was in Jerusalem that would qualify as being the 'stars of heaven'. The best candidate is John the Baptist and the Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Ch:11 can all apply to the iron/clay kingdom. The whole chapter takes place during the time allotted to the Beast, 42 months. Satan and the Beast are the two Kings and human armies would be the main armies until most of them die in a battle against the 2ooM of the 6th trump.
You already allow for a 3 1/2 trib just prior to Christ's return, try fitting every about the iron/clay and 4th beast of Da:7 into that 3 1/2 years. This doesn't touch on how long the events prior to the 5th and 6th trumps take.
It is a time with almost constant war and many people die.
Wayne, The persons ARE those talked about after "Alex" (Alexander the Great) is finished!
Let's look at a few verses step by step with the secular history associated:
Dan 11
1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
(Gavri'el the Prince is saying that he stood to confirm and strengthen Daryavesh or Darius II the Mede in his first year of rulership.)
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia;...
(These kings are Artaxerxes II, Artaxerxes III, and Arses.)
...and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
(This was Daryavesh or Darius III, the last king of the Persian Empire before its decline.)
3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
(This is Alexander III of Macedon or Alexander the Great who ruled 356–323 BC.)
4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
(When Alexander died, his son was still an infant. Therefore, rulership fell to his four generals; however, there was contention as to who was supposed to be in charge of the whole kingdom; so, it became four different empires: The kingdom of Macedon, the Ptolemaic kingdom of Egypt, the Seleucid Empire, and the kingdom of Pergamon in Asia Minor.)
5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
(The strong king of the south is Ptolemy II Philadelphus, 283-246 BCE, The prince, Ptolemy III Euergetes, 246-221, was his successor who was an even stronger ruler.)
6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.
(Ptolemy II’s daughter, Berenice, married the north king Antiochus II Theos bringing a short lived alliance. Berenice’s children were to be the new heirs to the throne. But Antiochus left later returned to his first wife and Berenice and her children were all killed.)
7 But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:
(Berenice’s brother, the branch, Ptolemy III, already mentioned as the 'strong prince,' waged a war against the northern king Seleucus, which was known as the 3rd Syrian War in 245-241 BCE, and won taking the capital at Antioch.)
8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north.
(Ptolemy III carried back to Egypt immense booty and 2,500 molten images and idolatrous vessels with 40,000 talents of silver.)
9 So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land.
(Seleucus II then undertook an anabasis to regain Parthia, in Ptolemy territory, the results of which came to nothing. According to some sources, he was even taken prisoner for several years by the Parthian king.)
10 But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress.
KJV
(Seleucus II’s son, Antiochus III the Great, took his forces all the way to Ptolemais, retaking all the territories lost to Ptolemy III, who was now succeeded by Ptolemy IV Philopator.)
That’s as far as I’m going to go for now, but if you wish to see more, simply go to http://www.christianrevolution.net/studyRender.php?studyID=29. It’s one of the more scholarly sites I found on the subject. The WHOLE of chapter 11 can be found in history and most of chapter 12!
So, be careful, my brother. Much of this particular prophecy has already been fulfilled!
There's an old saying, "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I'd like to alter that in light of prophecy: "Those who do not learn from history think prophecy's fulfillment will be repeated."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/29/2010 2:08:01 AM
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Ntech
Posts: 62
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Ntech.
I agree with the verses from Hoshea (Hosea), and I can even accept the possibility of (1 "day" [yowm] = 1000 years) as an explanation for the "two-day" gap, although I cringe at such equations being yanked out of context (II Pet. 3:8; Ps. 90:4) for that purpose. (That's just DANGEROUS, theologically speaking!), but to all the rest of that I say, "Hogwash." Again, you make an unfounded statement as though it was a fact:
quote:
That's why there is a gap of thousands of years between the 69th and the 70th week.
What's up with that? You're using verses (specifically Dan. 11:5-6) that have already been fulfilled in the person of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
Furthermore, I sincerely hope that haYowm Yizre`el (the Day of Jezreel) won't last for a thousand years! READ THE WHOLE RECORD of that day!
Hos 1:1-2:2
1:1 This is the word of Adonai that came to Hoshea the son of Be’eri during the reigns of ‘Uziyah, Yotam, Achaz and Y’chizkiyah, kings of Y’hudah, and during the reign of Yarov‘am the son of Yo’ash, king of Isra’el. 2 Adonai’s opening words in speaking to Hoshea were to instruct Hoshea,
“Go, marry a whore,
and have children with this whore;
for the land is engaged in flagrant whoring,
whoring away from Adonai.”
3 So he went and married Gomer the daughter of Divlayim, and she conceived and bore him a son. 4 Adonai said to him, “Call him Yizre‘el, because in only a short time I will punish the house of Yehu for having shed blood at Yizre‘el; I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Isra’el. 5 When that day comes, I will break the bow of Isra’el in the Yizre‘el Valley.”
6 She conceived again and bore a daughter. Adonai said to him, “Name her Lo-Ruchamah [unpitied], for I will no longer have pity on the house of Isra’el. By no means will I forgive them. 7 But I will pity the house of Y’hudah; I will save them not by bow, sword, battle, horses or cavalry, but by Adonai their God.”
8 After weaning Lo-Ruchamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Adonai said, “Name him Lo-‘Ammi [not-my-people], because you are not my people, and I will not be your [God].
2:1 (1:10) “Nevertheless, the people of Isra’el will number as many as the grains of sand by the sea, which cannot be measured or counted; so that the time will come when, instead of being told, ‘You are not my people,’ it will be said to them, ‘You are the children of the living God.’ 2(1:11) Then the people of Y’hudah and the people of Isra’el will be gathered together; they will appoint for themselves one leader; and they will go up out of the land; for that will be a great day, [the day] of Yizre‘el.
CJB
Because Yizre`el is a valley that runs southeast from Haifa and Har Karmel (Mount Carmel) and then turns southward once it rounds Har Megiddown (Mount of Megiddo) on the west, this is about ADONAI'S RESCUE of Y'hudah (Judah).
This is NOT about the Millennium! This is about Armageddon! Can you imagine the Battle of Har-Megiddown lasting for a THOUSAND YEARS?!! If it's not good for the third day, then maybe it's not a correct interpretation for the first two days, either.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
To answer the post here. On the 2000 year curse. We have 2000 years of history to look at. In the 20 to 30 AD timeframe we have the deaths of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. Then after a period of civil unrest there is the unsuccessful rebellion that lead to the distruction of the temple and the fall of Masada. Then the Bar Kokba revolt of 135 AD that lead to the diaspora. Then after 1900 years a nation named Israel appeared overnight in 1948.
Reality is mimicking the prophecy.
As far as the day of Jezreel being a thousand years look at Rev. 20.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The reign of the saints is also a thousand years. I would pose this. They are the same event. Just told by different prophets.
The 70th week and the curse ends. Then the day of Jezreel and the reign of the saints start.
And for the prophecy of Daniel 11-5 and 6 the events of 1900 to 2500 years ago have a problem which I have gone over once but I'll go over again. The prophecy specifically mentions the agreement happens at the end of years. There has been far too many years passing since those events to say they happened in the end of years. And looking at the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 you can only come up with one conclusion. The end of years is in the 70th week. The last 7 years of the 70 week prophecy.
The events surrounding Antiochus IV Epiphanes happened at the wrong time. They don't satisfy the time requirement of the prophecy. Daniel, and Daniel 11 is unfinished.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/30/2010 3:51:56 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, Battyus.
On to Subject # 7:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #7 (What covenant was made in Daniel 9:27)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then the covenant that Jesus makes is going to be for 1 week (7 Years to be consistent with Daniel 9:24).
According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!
My question: What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?
The covenant was the one that all the kings made with the subjects of Isra'el AND the covenant that God made with Daviyd and his house:
2 Sam 5:3-4
2 Sam 23:1-5
2 Chron 13:4-5
2 Chron 6:13-17
The covenant is an agreement that Daviyd made with Isra'el and that God made with Daviyd and all His children, right down the line to Yeshua`!
RULE#1: I ask you to quote where Jesus makes this covenant in the New Testament.
I say "According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!"
Also, you still ignore the fact that the covenant in Dan 9:27 is made for 1 week: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"!
Do you say that the covenant you referred to is intact for only 7 years?
My question was specifically: "What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?"
Luke 1:67-79
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
KJV
You must understand that the covenant is not MADE for one “seven” but is CONFIRMED (Hebrew: “gaavar” = to “make strong”) for one “seven.” We might say the covenant is VALIDATED or is GIVEN “TEETH!”
Notice above that the prophecy is “that (a) we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us, (b) to perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and (c) to remember His holy covenant, (namely) the oath which He sware to our father Abraham that (once) we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might SERVE HIM WITHOUT FEAR, IN HOLINESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE HIM, ALL THE DAYS OF OUR LIFE.”
Luke 3:1-6
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
KJV
The words “the salvation of God,” translated from the Greek words “to sooteerion tou Theou,” uses the word “sooteerion” which Strong’s defines as…
NT:4992 soterion (so-tay'-ree-on); neuter of the same as NT:4991 as (properly, concretely) noun; defender or (by implication) defence:
KJV - salvation.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
That’s not our “defence” of God or even God’s “defense” of us, but God’s “defense” of His people, in particular (given the context), the Jews (or more precisely, the Israelites).
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
Who at this point in Yeshua`s ministry knew anything about Yeshua` having to die for sins or even believed that He would?! (That’s a rhetorical question, btw.) No, they were looking for the REDEEMER of Isra’el! The SAVIOR! The RESCUER! So, what was this “gospel” or “good news” to which Yeshua` was referring? It was in Isaiah’s prophecy:
Isa 40:9-10
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
KJV
Isa 52:7-10
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
KJV
Yeshua` didn’t need to explain to the Jews and Israelites to whom He was talking what the gospel was nor even what the “Kingdom of God” was. He just told them to repent and to believe the good news! They knew quite well what they were, and they were looking forward to the day!
Matt 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
KJV
Luke 4:14-21
14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
KJV
He quoted a PART of what Isaiah said in Isaiah 61:1-3:
Isa 61:1-3
61 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
KJV
He stopped reading in the middle of a sentence! The rest would come at the END of the seven years! At the END of the final “seven!” First, they were to make it “a year for delight to the LORD!” While the repentance is intimately tied to the Rescue, the Rescue is not “from sin,” per se, but “from their enemies” so they could serve the LORD without fear!
Rom 10:1-15
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV
Consider for a moment the passage in the Old Testament from which verse 13 was quoted, Joel 2:32:
Joel 2:23-32
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
KJV
So, Paul concludes:
Rom 11:26-27
26 And so all Israel shall be saved (rescued): as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
KJV
Part of verse 26 is probably quoted from Psalm 14:7 or 53:6, but it could also come from any of the following:
Ps 14:7
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
KJV
Ps 50:2-6
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.
KJV
Ps 53:6
6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
KJV
Ps 110:1-4
1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
KJV
Joel 3:16-17
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV
‘Nough said.
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 1/30/2010 4:00:07 PM >
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/30/2010 4:28:55 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, Battyus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #8 (Did or did not Jesus make the sacrifices cease or not when he was here on Earth)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
4. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then according to the same verse "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". So according to you Jesus had the sacrifice and the oblation to cease when he was on Earth. This can not be true as the sacrifice and the oblation continued up until AD70. Keep in mind that, you said: "half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach"
My question, what scripture backs up the continuation of the sacrifices for ~40 more years?
There is NONE! To the contrary, we have evidence in Matthew 27:50-53 ...
Matt 27:50-53
... coupled with the explanation of the author of Hebrews:
Heb 10:5-22
Thus, no matter how they sacrificed animals from the time of the death of Yeshua` to 70 A.D., they were MEANINGLESS BUTCHERING of animals, no longer capable of atonement! In fact, there is an account that says that the red ribbon tied to the escape goat (Lev. 16), which supernaturally used to turn white with the completion of the sacrifice, remained red during those 40 years!
See, they were not truly sacrifices if the LORD of the sacrifices did not accept them as such! They were just going through the vain motions.
So you agree that Jesus DID NOT make the sacrifices stop while he was on Earth.
This automatically denies the possibility that Daniel 9:27 talks about Jesus as the one who makes the covenant and by this your view lost the leg it was standing on!
No, no! You are mistaken! Yeshua` DID make the sacrifices stop while He was on earth! His father—GOD—no longer accepted animal sacrifices! THAT’S what stopped the SACRIFICES!
It’s just like Yeshua` said to the P’rushiym (Pharisees) at a different time:
Matt 23:16-22
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
KJV
It’s not whether they continued to kill animals for sacrifices; it’s about whether GOD WAS ACCEPTING SUCH KILLINGS AS SACRIFICES!
He was NOT accepting animal killings as sacrifices any more after Yeshua` paid the ultimate sacrifice!
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/30/2010 11:39:08 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Battyus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #9 (Which covenant Daniel 9:27 talks about)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
5. Your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39:
I see why you would feel good about your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39 if the Messiah is the one who in Dan 9:27 "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
My questions:
-In Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus clearly addresses Jerusalem, which is "the Jewish people". So if according to you Matthew 23:37-39 and Daniel 9:27 are parallel passages, then Jesus made the covenant in Dan 9:27 only with Israel. However according to Daniel 9:27 the covenant is made with Many not only with Israel. How do you explain this discrepancy?
Simple. This is NOT the New Covenant (which, by the way, was to be made with the children of Isra'el) and was extended to the Goyim (the Gentiles); this is the Davidic Covenant through which God promised there would always be one of Daviyd's line to sit upon the throne! The seven years, is reminiscent of the first seven years of Daviyd's kingdom when He reigned from Hevrown (Hebron). Those were the years He was supposed to reign over the tribe of Y'hudah (as did Daviyd haMelekh). BUT, they REJECTED HIM as their King!
In Daniel 9:27 there is a covenant made. This is a covenant that is made by the person about whom Daniel 9:27 talks about. This person could be the Antichrist(my opinion) or the Messiah(your opinion). Daniel 9:27 does not talk about a covenant that was made by David! (I think things are really mixed up here in your view and in fact the whole view is based upon this false assumption)
Again, this is not the MAKING of a covenant; it is the EMPOWERING of an already existing covenant! Dani’el does not talk about making a covenant at all!
Dani’el is talking about giving an EXISTING covenant STRENGTH! Look closely at the text of Dani’el 9:27 again:
Dan. 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
The phrase, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week,” in Hebrew is “V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa`,” which literally translates word-for-word to “And-he-shall-strengthen in-cutting (covenant) to-many a-seven.”
So, this verse says that the Messiah “shall STRENGTHEN the covenant to many [for] a seven,” but it has to be done by Yeshua` the Messiah, NOT the “prince that shall come.”
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/31/2010 11:00:44 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Roy
You will have a problem convincing anyone of Christ affirming a covenant with many for one seven.. There is no prophetic OT scriptures of this happening. There is no NT affirmation of Christ confirming this covenant. No record in any of the Gospels. Paul does not disclose any.
Proper English grammar would put the "He will confirm...." to the person described just ahead of that description, and that would be of the "ruler who will come or prince who will come".
Do you really think Christ would affirm any covenant with many for one seven when He knew He would be crucified before He could accomplish it. That would make Christ a liar. I think not.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/1/2010 7:53:28 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
You will have a problem convincing anyone of Christ affirming a covenant with many for one seven.. There is no prophetic OT scriptures of this happening. There is no NT affirmation of Christ confirming this covenant. No record in any of the Gospels. Paul does not disclose any.
Proper English grammar would put the "He will confirm...." to the person described just ahead of that description, and that would be of the "ruler who will come or prince who will come".
Do you really think Christ would affirm any covenant with many for one seven when He knew He would be crucified before He could accomplish it. That would make Christ a liar. I think not.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Well, to me, you already have a problem convincing me of the Antichrist affirming a covenant with many for one seven! Besides Dani'el's prophecy, what is there to prove this will happen? There is no other prophetic OT scriptures of this happening. There is no NT affirmation of the Antichrist confirming this covenant! No record in any of the Gospels. Neither Paul nor Peter nor John confirms this prophecy as being about the Antichrist!
Proper English grammar does NOT ascribe the antecedent of a pronoun to be the object of a preposition!!! It is ALWAYS a subjective noun, not an objective noun! The "ruler who will come" or the "prince who will come" HAS to refer to the subject of one of the previous sentences and that usually the closest previous sentence! That is "MASHIACH" or "MESSIAH!"
Do you really think that anyone BUT the Messiah COULD affirm THE COVENANT God made with Avraham and then confirmed with Daviyd later?! OF COURSE, the SON OF GOD knew that He would fulfill the prophecies about the Suffering Messiah, but do you think He would do anything other than to FULFILL ALL PROPHECY?!! That makes Him a COVENANT KEEPER! It puts Him on the same page with His Father! God doesn't switch His promises over to a different nation (although He may EXPAND them to other nations)! God WILL fulfill ALL the Scriptures and will fulfill them LITERALLY just as much as the prophecies about the Messiah were fulfilled LITERALLY the first time He came! Don't turn a blind eye to a better interpretation.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/1/2010 9:17:47 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
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Roy
Gods covenant with Abraham was an everlasting covenant (a seed, a promise and a land). The covenant to David was also everlasting (his throne would last forever). The problem is the "ruler who is to come" cannot be identified as Christ. Christ did not rule, He did not become Israels King, only a few followed Him.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/1/2010 12:41:08 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
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Could the 'he' be a reference to somebody before the one last mentioned (ruler who is to come). Some translations would eliminate Christ and 'the ruler' just because that is their first introduction, they would be able to make a 1st covenant but not reinforce one.
If it is God's 70 weeks then He is in control of all the weeks. God made a promise to Abraham that one of his children's heirs would be able to bless many Nations. Matthew takes Jesus's heritage back that far. The passage under examination mentions the Messiah, having the Messiah on Earth is the covenant being strengthened. Those 7 years had events happen that lead the way to coming as King. The first 3 1/2 years established who Christ has authority over (to be called His people), the cross entitled Him to be glorified which meant He could direct the Holy Spirit to baptize people with the same spirit that He was baptized with just after His water baptism. In the last 3 1/2 years, at the end of that 3 1/2 years the Gospel is preached to the Gentiles.
One more item that points to God being the 'he' is this verse from the beginning of the same passage.
Da:9:3:
And I set my face unto the Lord God,
to seek by prayer and supplication,
with fasting,
and sackcloth,
and ashes:
Da:9:4:
And I prayed unto the LORD my God,
and made my confession,
and said,
O Lord,
the great and dreadful God,
keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him,
and to them that keep his commandments;
What covenant is being referenced in vs 4 and is it different than the one in vs 27? I see no reason to not view them as being the same. Another item Scripture mentions is being cut-off at the end of the 69th week. With God being the 'keeper' it would also be Him that controls the 'who is cut-off'. In terms of being High Priest God called John the Baptist about 6 months before Jesus was baptized. John was preaching the 'good news' and continued to do so until he was put into prison, that is when Jesus started preaching the Kingdom of God (as far as Matthew and Mark describe events). Jesus conforms that John's role is higher than His in the early part of that 70th week.
M't:3:14:
But John forbad him,
saying,
I have need to be baptized of thee,
and comest thou to me?
M't:3:15:
And Jesus answering said unto him,
Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Then he suffered him.
Roy in the post you made about Daniel 11, in my version the whole chapter after the 4th king is mentioned is about the last 3 1/2 before Christ. I have no idea how the battles play out. There is enough in Daniel to identify some key verses (matching, ie when 3 of the 10 original kings are conquered by 1 person that can be.
To do that I think we have to start back at the statue itself. In my version all the verses below are about the same time-frame. The iron starts when the 5th trumps sounds and it ends with Christ's return 3 1/2 years later. I was hoping only to stick with what could be found in Daniel itself so the last passage is not covered in any great detail because that would involve a lot of references to Revelation.
In doing an exploration of Daniel 11 shouldn't the references of two of the beast be used to describe how many are involved, the 2nd has 3 ribs (3 names that Scripture gives) the 3rd has 'x' number of players, one is named Grecia, that would include Alex and any later generals.
Hopefully this will keep you entertained while I try and answer you post verse by verse. Since it is Satan’s battle-plan as described in Revelation (for the most part) most of the moves are a mystery to me. There is enough information given in Daniel to identify who the kings in Daniel 11 are. I am afraid that also means no references to modern history books that cover the period of time the statue covers, for the moment. The time is from when Neb is alive until the statue is broken (Christ’s return). The terms used here are valid in the rest of the book of Daniel. The statues is in 4 parts, what is said is an introduction to a subject that is covered in more detail in later chapters. For the head it is the chapter about Neb, he didn’t start out as a believer in God but by the time he died he was a true believer.
The silver is also covered in more detail, for them we are even given their names, their time ends when the brass starts, the brass is called the 3rd kingdom, later chapters would provide more information about the events during that time, the last kingdom of the statue is the one that is in control when Christ starts to resurrect many people, as well as sending some for punishment.
I hope we can agree on that point.
You believe there is 3 1/2 years of tribulation left, so do I. That means we are still someplace in the statue (as far as time goes) because Christ is not physically ruling. We have the luxury of more testaments, Daniel may have had all of the OT. Daniel may not have been given all the information but his book should still have made sense to him (and all later readers)
Using the information in Daniel this is what information we are given on that 4th kingdom.
Da:2:39:
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,
and another third kingdom of brass,
which shall bear rule over all the earth.
(the silver is in Daniels time, the Brass starts with Alex and that kingdom has to spread throughout the whole earth. Rome has influence today, in Scripture the Roman Government was given the sword and the people had the gospel to be published and spread out into all corners of the earth. The RCC certainly is not powerless or without members. If God uses the words ‘over all the earth’ that is what it should be taken to mean in the time the prophecy unfolds. However those who have the sword today we be overthrown by the one in the verse below, the dimensions of his kingdom are already defined ‘all the earth’
Da:2:40:
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron:
forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things:
and as iron that breaketh all these,
shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Defines that takeover and rule to be quite violent. Potter’s clay is used in the OT to define men
Da:2:41:
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,
part of potters' clay,
and part of iron,
the kingdom shall be divided;
but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron,
forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Da:2:42:
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron,
and part of clay,
so the kingdom shall be partly strong,
and partly broken.
Da:2:43:
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay,
they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:
but they shall not cleave one to another,
even as iron is not mixed with clay.
It is that same kingdom that is ruling when Christ arrives. For Daniel that would have been Da:21:1. The verses prior to that are from the same passage and that passage goes back to when the 4th king is mentioned near the beginning of Da:11
Once Da:12:1 starts to unfold the time alloted to the statue is over. The two directions that are taken can be found in Re:10 & 16
Da:2:44:
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,
which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people,
but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,
and it shall stand for ever.
Below Grecia is expired and it’s division has taken place. That kingdom would last past the time of the fulfillment of the verses in that same chapter. The iron starts, for Daniel it is the last kingdom of the statue.
Da:8:22:
Now that being broken,
whereas four stood up for it,
four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation,
but not in his power.
Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.
The time when all the players are gathered for the iron/clay to rule. If the brass had control of the world then that is what the iron would start with. The start of that rule is the 5th trump, 42 months later it is broken into pieces, quickly. Below is more of what is done in those months.
Da:8:24:
And his power shall be mighty,
but not by his own power:
and he shall destroy wonderfully,
and shall prosper,
and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Da:8:25:
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;
and he shall magnify himself in his heart,
and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;
but he shall be broken without hand.
Same as the iron/clay kingdom, the feats are the same but it is most useful when blended in with what Revelation also says. Vs:9 is the moment the statue is broken, the toes are the clay portion of the toes
Da:7:7:
After this I saw in the night visions,
and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible,
and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth:
it devoured and brake in pieces,
and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it;
and it had ten horns.
(this would be the arrival of the man of sin in Da:11, in Da:2:43 the men are the clay)
Da:7:8:
I considered the horns,
and,
behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.
Vs:9 is the 7th trump sounding and the result of how thing look at the end of day 1/360,000
Da:7:9:
I beheld till the thrones were cast down,
and the Ancient of days did sit,
whose garment was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like the pure wool:
his throne was like the fiery flame,
and his wheels as burning fire.
(Vs:9 is the 7th trump sounding and a short description of how thing look at the end of day 1/360,000
All of the above and below should be able to be found also in Da:11, from the time it stands up until the last verse in the chapter )
Da:7:19:
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast,
which was diverse from all the others,
exceeding dreadful,
whose teeth were of iron,
and his nails of brass;
which devoured,
brake in pieces,
and stamped the residue with his feet;
Da:7:20:
And of the ten horns that were in his head,
and of the other which came up,
and before whom three fell;
even of that horn that had eyes,
and a mouth that spake very great things,
whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Da:7:21:
I beheld,
and the same horn made war with the saints,
and prevailed against them;
Da:7:22:
Until the Ancient of days came,
and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Da:7:23:
Thus he said,
The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,
which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,
and shall devour the whole earth,
and shall tread it down,
and break it in pieces.
Da:7:24:
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:
and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first,
and he shall subdue three kings.
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Da:7:26:
But the judgment shall sit,
and they shall take away his dominion,
to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Shouldn't we get some agreement on this part of Daniel first?
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/1/2010 1:16:40 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
God's covenant with Abraham was an everlasting covenant (a seed, a promise and a land). The covenant to David was also everlasting (his throne would last forever). The problem is the "ruler who is to come" cannot be identified as Christ. Christ did not rule, He did not become Israels King, only a few followed Him.
In Christ
Montana Marv
He is NOT the "ruler who is to come"; He is the "Messiah" or the "Anointed [One]"!
Dan 9:26-27
26 And (after threescore and two weeks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not (for himself): and the people (of the prince that shall come) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be (with a flood), and (unto the end) (of the war) desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant (with many) (for one week): and (in the midst) (of the week) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and (for the overspreading) (of abominations) he shall make it desolate, even (until the consummation), and that determined shall be poured (upon the desolate).
KJV
Here you go. I have identified the prepositional phrases within verses 26 and 27. None of the terms within the parentheses may be used as the antecedents for the pronouns outside the parentheses! The rest of the verbs, infinitives, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, adverbs, and conjunctions I have highlighted. Does that help? IT'S THE SAME AS IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE! The verbs in verse 27 would reflect back to "Mashiach" in verse 26.
I can't make it any plainer; I would just be repeating myself.
He has not been Isra'el's King ... YET! You're right about that; that's why I say that it MUST be fulfilled that way in the future. Only a FEW followed Him BECAUSE of "the OVERSPREADING of abominations!" Yeshua` the Messiah DID make it desolate (Matt. 23:39) and that which was FOREORDAINED TO HAPPEN--namely, their "blindness-in-part," was poured out upon the desolate Isra'el, and they are still feeling and suffering the effects!
You're also right about the covenant with Avraham and Daviyd being everlasting covenants, or rather ONE everlasting covenant, but a covenant that is intangible and nebulous is no good. It HAS to have some tangibleness; it has to be concrete at some point; it has to touch reality! Yeshua` was doing that during His first coming; He was DEMONSTRATING the Power of God through His Messiah, Yeshua`, who was CHOSEN TO BE THEIR KING! That's what "anointed" means! Sha'ul (Saul) was one of God's anointed ones; remember Daviyd's words?
1 Sam 24:5-6
5 And it came to pass afterward, that David's heart smote him, because he had cut off Saul's skirt.
6 And he said unto his men, The Lord forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the Lord's anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord.
KJV
It's the SAME WORD, "Mashiach!" It's the same word that was transliterated as "Messiah" through Greek into English; the same word that was translated into Greek and then transliterated into English as "CHRIST!"
There have been many who were Chosen of God to be King down through the years...Daviyd, Shlomo, Rechav`am, Aviyah, Asa, etc. ... but there is only ONE who is to be THE Messiah of prophecy! The Jews (particularly the Orthodox Jews) have known this for millennia! Their problem has been two-fold: First, they had trouble realizing that this Yeshua` from Nazareth would be THE Messiah, and second, it was only through this Yeshua`, once accepted as Messiah, that it was revealed that this was THE SON OF GOD! For those two reasons, they refused to accept Him as they should have, and so, He likewise left them desolate and blind until they've learned their lesson.
But, ALL of the "holy ones" down through the history recorded in the Scriptures--the priests, the judges, the prophets, and the kings--were ANOINTED by GOD! They were ALL "mashiachs" or "messiahs" or "christs!" They were ALL anointed with the specially prepared "holy anointing oil" mentioned in Exodus 30:22-33, which represented the Ruach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit of GOD. Yeshua`, too, was anointed by the Ruach haQodesh DIRECTLY at His baptism.
I used to believe as you do that the "ruler who would come" would be the "Antichrist." I didn't come to this change lightly nor did the change come overnight. I grew into it as I learned about Greek and Hebrew and as I studied God's Word and saw a better way that the "pieces of the jigsaw puzzle" fit together.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/1/2010 1:32:14 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You're also right about the covenant with Avraham and Daviyd being everlasting covenants, or rather ONE everlasting covenant, but a covenant that is intangible and nebulous is no good. It HAS to have some tangibleness; it has to be concrete at some point; it has to touch reality! Yeshua` was doing that during His first coming; He was DEMONSTRATING the Power of God through His Messiah, Yeshua`, who was CHOSEN TO BE THEIR KING! That's what "anointed" means! Sha'ul (Saul) was one of God's anointed ones; remember Daviyd's words?
Anointing can also be applied to a Priest.
Le:8:12: And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him. When looking at that part it was fulfilled so that is not a barrier to the completion of the 70 weeks in the past.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/1/2010 4:25:51 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You're also right about the covenant with Avraham and Daviyd being everlasting covenants, or rather ONE everlasting covenant, but a covenant that is intangible and nebulous is no good. It HAS to have some tangibleness; it has to be concrete at some point; it has to touch reality! Yeshua` was doing that during His first coming; He was DEMONSTRATING the Power of God through His Messiah, Yeshua`, who was CHOSEN TO BE THEIR KING! That's what "anointed" means! Sha'ul (Saul) was one of God's anointed ones; remember Daviyd's words?
Anointing can also be applied to a Priest.
Le:8:12: And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him. When looking at that part it was fulfilled so that is not a barrier to the completion of the 70 weeks in the past.
Right! Anointing was done to priests, prophets, judges, and kings. Yeshua` fits all FOUR categories! He's the Priest forever after the order of Melkhi-tsedeq (or Melchizedek), which is Hebrew for "King of Righteousness." He was acknowledged to be a "Great Prophet." He is the Judge of all the earth, and He is the King of Isra'el and also to be the "King of Kings" or "Emperor" of the World!
As far as "completion of the 70 weeks" goes, He is not yet SEATED in the Temple, as He will be!
Ezek 43:1-7
1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house.
6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
KJV
Ezek 44:1-4
1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell upon my face.
KJV
I've no argument against what you've said here. Just be aware that Yeshua` fits all FOUR cases for being called the "Anointed One," and not all of them were fulfilled in Him becoming a High Priest forever after the order of Melkhi-tsedeq.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/2/2010 10:16:11 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Roy
To make a half a week (3 1/2 years) you need to change the prophecy. Which you have done.
Daniel is very specific:
70 - sevens are decreed for your people and holy city. v24.
7 - sevens or 49 years. Dan 9:v25
62 - sevens or 434 years. v25
1 - seven or 7 years. v27
Daniel does not say 1/2 of a seven in the decree, but all are sevens. To slice and dice (a seven) is to change scripture.
And don't say it was supposed to be a seven, if it was to be divided, then Daniel would have worded the decree differently. Daniel lists ALL sevens in the decree. Either this last seven is already past or it is still in the future. It cannot be divided (sliced and diced). What's said in the decree must stand in concrete, it cannot be fudged one iota. You're whole position is based on your ability to slice and dice this decree.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/2/2010 1:33:57 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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I think I agree with you Montana Marv.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/2/2010 9:54:14 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
To make a half a week (3 1/2 years) you need to change the prophecy. Which you have done.
Daniel is very specific:
70 - sevens are decreed for your people and holy city. v24.
7 - sevens or 49 years. Dan 9:v25
62 - sevens or 434 years. v25
1 - seven or 7 years. v27
Daniel does not say 1/2 of a seven in the decree, but all are sevens. To slice and dice (a seven) is to change scripture.
And don't say it was supposed to be a seven, if it was to be divided, then Daniel would have worded the decree differently. Daniel lists ALL sevens in the decree. Either this last seven is already past or it is still in the future. It cannot be divided (sliced and diced). What's said in the decree must stand in concrete, it cannot be fudged one iota. You're whole position is based on your ability to slice and dice this decree.
In Christ
Montana Marv
You are being seriously close-minded about this. Y'all have the audacity to separate the last seven from the other sixty-nine sevens, and then accuse ME of slicing and dicing?! I know some Preterists who would accuse you of the same thing!
I wasn't the one who said, "in the middle of the seven!" First, it was Gavri'el (Gabriel) who gave the word to Dani'el who in turn recorded the message, and it was the Messiah Himself that caused the nation of Isra'el to be desolate until the end!
Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
If you don't like it, too bad. Give me a better interpretation! So far, all other explanations I've seen are inadequate and do not fit the Scriptures.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/2/2010 10:02:27 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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I find it extremely hilarious when someone calls another person "close-minded" when they don't agree with what them to agree with. So which one is being close-minded?
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/2/2010 10:41:40 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Travis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
I find it extremely hilarious when someone calls another person "close-minded" when they don't agree with what them to agree with. So which one is being close-minded?
LOL! Let's just laugh together! Have you even considered the possibility I proposed, OR are you convinced that (pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, prewrath) [pick one] is correct and you can't see it any other way? If you haven't even openly considered the possibility, then you are, by definition, "close-minded." No judgment; just fact.
Remember: I CAME from pretrib! I've been there, and in my earlier years I could argue FOR pretrib with the best of them! As a Baptist preacher's kid, believe me when I say I knew all the rhetoric backward and forward! My father made sure of that! I could STILL give you all the "right" answers for pretrib! I'VE STUDIED THEM! I have a 4-year degree from a Baptist college. I've read Pentecost, Walvoord, Lindsey, and LaHaye as well as many others. I've read LaHaye's and Jenkins' twelve-book series on Left Behind. I have them in my library. I have read Pentecost's book Things To Come from cover to cover. (You won't find many who can claim that.) It was one of my text books. You know what I say to all of that? Probably what you are already saying: BIG DEAL!
What good are all the arguments when you start finding "chinks in the armor?" Verse interpretations that don't quite add up; picking a verse out here or there and putting them together when they have no business being together; quoting a Scripture verse for one phrase out of the verse, not knowing what the rest of the verse is talking about; building a whole eschatological system upon a couple of verses that are a shaky foundation at best; assuming one can know the whole of the Old Testament prophecies based on one's interpretation of Revelation! These are fallacies of the worst kind of which I was just as guilty once as anyone else!
No, I did not come to this conclusion lightly nor overnight. It took YEARS AND YEARS of convincing myself that it COULD be true before I could seriously analyze what I had found. It's not a common argument; I know that! Don't you think I know that?!
I've prayed many times that someone would be able to show me BY REASONING FROM THE SCRIPTURES where I "went wrong!" I miss the "good ol' days" when I was always "right" about pretribulational rapturism!
So, take your best shot. To all of it, I say, "Whatever."
Roy
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/3/2010 12:28:26 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 934
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Sadly, Roy, you are probably correct, but your correctness does not allow for any mercy from Yaushuah to be shown, especially where He promises Philadelphia Church that He will not permit them to go through the hour of testing.
On a personal note: if you are right, I cannot lose, because I will be snuffed out by the removal of my life giving equipment I need to breath, and I will graduate home individually; and if I am right, I will graduate with the Church group. Yeee-Haaa, I cannot loose. My concern is for the other, millions, of Faithful, who are saved by Faith, through the Grace of God, in the Blood of Yaushuah's sacrifice. If you are right, you actually 'spit' on that sacrifice, as a waste of His gift to us, and will require that we qualify for His acceptance by our works, of surviving the Great Tribulation, so as to prove to Him we are worthy of his Salvation. I cannot, and will not buy into that. I am saved through His Grace, for the asking. The only factor beyond that is my reward, which is determined by my Discipleship of Yaushuah, be it the giving of my mortal life for my brothers and sisters, or simply through my witnessing to the unsaved, that they may offer themselves to be a part of God's Royal Family, and be my brother, or sister, in that family, cleansed by Grace, through Faith.
I love and respect you, but in my opinion, you have stepped into the realm of wrongness, and what I call: 'Do-zering' (we gotta do something to be accepted), which is absolutely not true. ENOUGH-Said.
In the Love of Messiah. Arley (No Book, Chapter, nor Verse, just Yaushuah's Love, and Forgiveness) I am willing to pay the price for being wrong, as should you.
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/3/2010 12:36:54 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
assuming one can know the whole of the Old Testament prophecies based on one's interpretation of Revelation! These are fallacies of the worst kind of which I was just as guilty once as anyone else!
Wow, I'm down to 1 complaint, lol.
Revelation pretty much deals with the last few years before Christ's return and then a short preview of what come after that. That means it should be the cornerstone when looking only at the end-time prophecies. Revelation clears up some mysteries that are introduced in Daniel., it is not the other way around. Here is a real-life example. The 3 verses below should be enough to determine that when Christ comes somebody will be punished. What Revelations clears up (by putting the events in order) we know the day of punishment is the day the 7th trump sounds. The prison they are put in is death and hell (sinners are in death sleeping, the wicked ones are in hell) The time they are there for is 1,000 years. Re:20 covers the ones called 'the rest'. The fine details might have been written down long ago but the key to putting it all together the way God intended is by letting Revelation dictate some key things, including times, people and places.
Isa:24:21:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high,
and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa:24:22:
And they shall be gathered together,
as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison,
and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa:24:23:
Then the moon shall be confounded,
and the sun ashamed,
when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion,
and in Jerusalem,
and before his ancients gloriously.
One of the habits I found myself in is that I thought I knew some aspects about certain things the Bible covers so I started to get into the habit of 'recalling from memory'. It was certainly faster but also prone to tiny errors. I found that going back and doing a quick review of the actual passage sometimes led to something new catching my eye that was new to me. It might not apply to the topic at hand but in another conversation it will be worth remembering that piece that would have remained unseen if you didn't review some references from time ti time.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/3/2010 12:49:40 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
will require that we qualify for His acceptance by our works, of surviving the Great Tribulation, so as to prove to Him we are worthy of his Salvation. I cannot, and will not buy into that.
Good because it doesn't work like that, you are under the same obligations you are under now, treat others as you would have them treat you. Granted earnest prayer would be much more common than it is today. Satan is said to kill 1/3 of man (about 2B) Christ is said to bring 1/3 of those through the fire as a way of purification. That is who the Church would be, it would also number about 2B. The tribulation that God gave that Church is that they would not see the same tribulation that the Church below will see if they fail to overcome a few things. What you are spared is the wrath associated with the 7 vials (3rd woe or great tribulation)
Re:2:22:
Behold,
I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation,
except they repent of their deeds.
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;)
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/3/2010 12:50:52 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
will require that we qualify for His acceptance by our works, of surviving the Great Tribulation, so as to prove to Him we are worthy of his Salvation. I cannot, and will not buy into that.
Good because it doesn't work like that, you are under the same obligations you are under now, treat others as you would have them treat you. Granted earnest prayer would be much more common than it is today. Satan is said to kill 1/3 of man (about 2B) Christ is said to bring 1/3 of those remaining through the fire as a way of purification. That is who the Church would be, it would also number about 2B. The tribulation that God gave that Church is that they would not see the same tribulation that the Church below will see if they fail to overcome a few things. What you are spared is the wrath associated with the 7 vials (3rd woe or great tribulation)
Re:2:22:
Behold,
I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation,
except they repent of their deeds.
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;)
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/7/2010 12:58:38 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Arley.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Sadly, Roy, you are probably correct, but your correctness does not allow for any mercy from Yaushuah to be shown, especially where He promises Philadelphia Church that He will not permit them to go through the hour of testing.
On a personal note: if you are right, I cannot lose, because I will be snuffed out by the removal of my life giving equipment I need to breath, and I will graduate home individually; and if I am right, I will graduate with the Church group. Yeee-Haaa, I cannot loose. My concern is for the other, millions, of Faithful, who are saved by Faith, through the Grace of God, in the Blood of Yaushuah's sacrifice. If you are right, you actually 'spit' on that sacrifice, as a waste of His gift to us, and will require that we qualify for His acceptance by our works, of surviving the Great Tribulation, so as to prove to Him we are worthy of his Salvation. I cannot, and will not buy into that. I am saved through His Grace, for the asking. The only factor beyond that is my reward, which is determined by my Discipleship of Yaushuah, be it the giving of my mortal life for my brothers and sisters, or simply through my witnessing to the unsaved, that they may offer themselves to be a part of God's Royal Family, and be my brother, or sister, in that family, cleansed by Grace, through Faith.
I love and respect you, but in my opinion, you have stepped into the realm of wrongness, and what I call: 'Do-zering' (we gotta do something to be accepted), which is absolutely not true. ENOUGH-Said.
In the Love of Messiah. Arley (No Book, Chapter, nor Verse, just Yaushuah's Love, and Forgiveness) I am willing to pay the price for being wrong, as should you.
I really don't know what you are talking about when you say, "My concern is for the other, millions, of Faithful, who are saved by Faith, through the Grace of God, in the Blood of Yaushuah's sacrifice. If you are right, you actually 'spit' on that sacrifice, as a waste of His gift to us, and will require that we qualify for His acceptance by our works, of surviving the Great Tribulation, so as to prove to Him we are worthy of his Salvation." I wouldn't buy into that either! Where in the world did you get such an off-beat, cock-eyed interpretation of what I said?! Please let me understand how you came to that conclusion based on what I said! I, too, believe that one is justified by God SOLELY through His Grace for the asking. NOWHERE I KNOW OF did I EVER say we had to do something to be accepted! You're right; it's absolutely not true!
No, there are PLENTY of other passages of Scripture that give us hope through the hour of testing. We don't have to be REMOVED from that hour, but PROTECTED THROUGH that hour.
Actually, I find extending the writings-to-the-seven-churches-of-Asia-Minor to include other churches and even worse to include whole TIME PERIODS as though they were characterized by these churches to be a very GLARING ERROR! These are specific churches and these messages were written specifically to these specific churches! The towns--Ephesus (Efesos), Smyrna (Smurna), Pergamus (Pergamos), Thyatira (THuateira), Sardis (Sardeis), Philadelphia (Filadelfeia), and Laodicea (Laodikia)--were REAL, LITERAL TOWNS which had REAL, LITERAL CONGREGATIONS of believers within them! Yochanan writes specifically to them because Yeshua` WANTS him to write specifically to them! They are on a natural road that leads in the order in which they are presented from the landing point on the beach from Patmos. They are the first such congregations to which a messenger from Patmos, carrying the Prophecy of the Revelation of Yeshua` haMashiach, would come.
We Christians, as a rule, generalize TOO MUCH!!! We almost NEVER keep specifics restricted to the specifics! Yet, the Bible has both generalizations and specifics! We need to be wise in how we treat the subject matter of God's Word! If it is wrong to take an absolute, global statement and make it a temporary, local statement, then it is JUST AS WRONG to take a temporary, local statement and treat it as though it was absolute and global in scope! These letters were written to LOCAL CONGREGATIONS, NOT to the UNIVERSAL BODY OF BELIEVERS! Now, that doesn't mean that we cannot gain some insight for our own congregations from these letters, but THEY WERE NOT WRITTEN TO US, not even ONE of them!
Revelation 3:10 is NOT about the End Times! Revelation 3:10 was written to the church at Filadelfeia (which means "brotherly love") about persecution they would face IN THEIR LIFETIME, not about during the future "seven years of Tribulation!"
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/7/2010 11:16:46 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Roy
If you continue with the rest of the letter, you will see that it is referring to the far future.
Rev 3:10 - I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. What past testing has the whole earth gone through?
v.11 - I am coming soon. Still at a future time from our time.
v.12 - Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God. A future reward.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/7/2010 12:51:28 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Actually, I find extending the writings-to-the-seven-churches-of-Asia-Minor to include other churches and even worse to include whole TIME PERIODS as though they were characterized by these churches to be a very GLARING ERROR!
Are you always so argumentative? lol The time of the Gentiles was started back in the time the NT was being written, why would you find it ‘odd’ to find writings about the ‘end of the time of the Gentiles’? For slightly different reasons, we both see what the 70 weeks ‘started’ as being ‘unfinished’. That narrows down the available options considerably. In that space of time the Gospel is to be spread to the 4 corners of the earth and then when the prophecies start to unfold they follow a pattern that can be found in written prophecies. A sinner would not have the same information as a Christian who knows what the Bible says. For them ‘that day’ would come after His return, a Christian would be able to know that an event must happen before Christ will claim the Earth. Even with the use of all the various time elements in Scripture you might be able to determine the day the closer you get to it (within a few days and longer for the ‘children of Light’ because we have all the prophecies in the Bible.) We can never get closer to ‘the hour’ than ‘1/2 day’. (1/2 of 24hrs rather than 1/2 of 12hrs in a day/night situation).
M't:24:36:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man,
no,
not the angels of heaven,
but my Father only.
2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.
I’m sure the ones who will be there to experience this event in the verse below. As far as Christ knew it could be as soon as the Book of Revelation was presented to these existing Churches. They could even be the first and only 7 to receive Revelation, that is part of all our doctrines so how can we not belong to one of those Churches, we are the readers mentioned. We are further mentioned later as being part of the group that sees the start will also see the end (less than one generation) The tribulation Revelation covers is specific to events just prior to Christ’s return. Tribulation for believers is over at the time Christ returns, tribulation for ‘the rest’ is just about to start.
Re:1:3:
Blessed is he that readeth,
and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.
Re:1:9:
I John,
who also am your brother,
and companion in tribulation,
and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,
was in the isle that is called Patmos,
for the word of God,
and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
These are specific churches and these messages were written specifically to these specific churches! The towns--Ephesus (Efesos), Smyrna (Smurna), Pergamus (Pergamos), Thyatira (THuateira), Sardis (Sardeis), Philadelphia (Filadelfeia), and Laodicea (Laodikia)--were REAL, LITERAL TOWNS which had REAL, LITERAL CONGREGATIONS of believers within them!
We literally read the same book they were sent, one of them is your ‘relative’. Can you imagine when they all read this and they found themselves describes but were living in the wrong village, so they moved? lol Is Christ going to use those same standards as a way of separating the ‘chosen’ (alive for the 1,000 years) from ‘the rest’ not alive for the 1,000 years)? I would think so with the stipulation that a person changes Churches as their relationship with God changes. Overcoming the mentioned things (in all Churches) should get help from above since Angels are the heads of the Churches (or their relatives). Neb’s relationship when he first heard of God might have but him in a Church because of the way he thought of God. By the time Neb died he would have been in a different Church, one more pleasing in God’s view.
A sinner in Church #1 is still a sinner in Church #7.
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yochanan writes specifically to them because Yeshua` WANTS him to write specifically to them!
The message he delivers to them is for this group. This would seem to include more than 7 villages. What is written in the Book sent to them is global in it’s execution.
Re:1:7:
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen.
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
They are on a natural road that leads in the order in which they are presented from the landing point on the beach from Patmos.
Yep can almost see the Church itself, lol
http://bibleatlas.org/full/ephesus.htm
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
They are the first such congregations to which a messenger from Patmos, carrying the Prophecy of the Revelation of Yeshua` haMashiach, would come.
Were the ‘conditions’ restricted to just those Churches? A yes answer would also seem to mean any rewards were also exclusive to just those Churches. If you happened to be from Hierapolis you are out of luck. The post would be quite long.
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
We Christians, as a rule, generalize TOO MUCH!!! We almost NEVER keep specifics restricted to the specifics! Yet, the Bible has both generalizations and specifics! We need to be wise in how we treat the subject matter of God's Word!
I assume that means contradiction real/apparent. Can that also include generalities, like does a feast for the birds/animals that Scripture mentions in a few places point to one event or a few events. If found to apply to a singular event then all the info from the passages are ‘most likely’ for that singular time period also. Will the river coming out of Christ’s House of Prayer end up being as wide as described in Ezekiel? Is the little book in Re:10 the same as the little book in Daniel?
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
If it is wrong to take an absolute, global statement and make it a temporary, local statement, then it is JUST AS WRONG to take a temporary, local statement and treat it as though it was absolute and global in scope!
Each of those Churches were promised rewards, no rewards are handed out yet, that happens at one time only, the day Christ claims the Earth. The wicked will be dead, the righteous will be safe from any sort of harm or pain coming again. Nobody other than the ones in those specific places has ever had a relationship with God that could be described in those descriptions? I think everybody could be covered by those descriptions (as individuals not as congregations in general, however when it says having the candlestick removed it means the entire Church)
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
These letters were written to LOCAL CONGREGATIONS, NOT to the UNIVERSAL BODY OF BELIEVERS!
Jesus couldn’t send the letters to Church of London England , Church of Washington DC, etc.
Why were they sent to the Angels of those Churches and not the Body of the specified Churches?
Why make their specific attributes part of an eternal document, since the Church began those things existed, they still do today.
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Now, that doesn't mean that we cannot gain some insight for our own congregations from these letters, but THEY WERE NOT WRITTEN TO US, not even ONE of them!
John is your brother, it’s upto you to decide which Church belong to, that also entitles you to the rewards that go with belonging to that certain Church.
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Revelation 3:10 is NOT about the End Times! Revelation 3:10 was written to the church at Filadelfeia (which means "brotherly love") about persecution they would face IN THEIR LIFETIME, not about during the future "seven years of Tribulation!"
Revelation never mentions a 7 year period of tribulation. Revelation is all about the end-times so chapter 3 is included, all the chapters are end-time orientated.
Actually it says that Church will be protected from temptation (to take the mark and enjoy Satan’s rewards). What world-wide event took place in their life-time?
Re:3:10:
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world,
to try them that dwell upon the earth.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/7/2010 1:56:08 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Wayne. Hope you are having a blessed "yowm richown" (first day [of the week])
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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
assuming one can know the whole of the Old Testament prophecies based on one's interpretation of Revelation! These are fallacies of the worst kind of which I was just as guilty once as anyone else!
Wow, I'm down to 1 complaint, lol.
Revelation pretty much deals with the last few years before Christ's return and then a short preview of what come after that. That means it should be the cornerstone when looking only at the end-time prophecies. Revelation clears up some mysteries that are introduced in Daniel., it is not the other way around. Here is a real-life example. The 3 verses below should be enough to determine that when Christ comes somebody will be punished. What Revelations clears up (by putting the events in order) we know the day of punishment is the day the 7th trump sounds. The prison they are put in is death and hell (sinners are in death sleeping, the wicked ones are in hell) The time they are there for is 1,000 years. Re:20 covers the ones called 'the rest'. The fine details might have been written down long ago but the key to putting it all together the way God intended is by letting Revelation dictate some key things, including times, people and places.
Isa:24:21:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high,
and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa:24:22:
And they shall be gathered together,
as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison,
and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa:24:23:
Then the moon shall be confounded,
and the sun ashamed,
when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion,
and in Jerusalem,
and before his ancients gloriously.
One of the habits I found myself in is that I thought I knew some aspects about certain things the Bible covers so I started to get into the habit of 'recalling from memory'. It was certainly faster but also prone to tiny errors. I found that going back and doing a quick review of the actual passage sometimes led to something new catching my eye that was new to me. It might not apply to the topic at hand but in another conversation it will be worth remembering that piece that would have remained unseen if you didn't review some references from time ti time.
Revelation is the LINK between prophecies! Think of 20-lb weights lying on a table, each one having a eye-loop in the top of the weight and all the weights lying on their sides in a circle with the eye-loops all toward the center of the table. Connecting all these weights through all their eye-loops is one massive ring holding them all together. Put a label on one of the weights saying "Daniel." Put another label on the next weight that says "Isaiah." Put another label on the next weight that says "Zechariah," and so on until there's a weight labeled for each one of the OT prophecies. You will also have to have some weights for the NT prophecies as well. A weight for the Olivet Discourse, for instance, and one for any other prophecy in both the Gospels and in the Epistles. Once each one of all the prophecies are represented by one of the weights, and all are connected through the center ring, zoom in and take a picture of the center ring barely showing parts of the weights. THAT SNAPSHOT, where 65% of the metal showing in the picture is from the weights around the ring, is the book of Revelation.
One does not have a complete picture of all the metal of all the weights, however, until one PULLS THE CAMERA BACK, zooming out to see the whole table of weights!
You're right about Revelation being the cornerstone; it's the LINK! That's what the NT does. However, as you noted, there are times when one has to go back to the prophecies and do reviews and let those things you missed the first time be new to you! I don't believe that anyone can remember all the nuances of all the prophecies. We MUST go back and "review" the prophecies frequently, particularly the OT prophecies. I say "review" because some of us may have never read them the FIRST time! Many don't even know what the prophecies say! The biggest problem I see with how the Gentile-predominant, modern, Christian churches use the OT prophecies is that they go back and merely pull out the familiar verses/passages that they believe support their current eschatological viewpoints and hardly touch the rest of the prophecies! Indeed, many of those who believe in an allegorical interpretation of OT prophecy REWRITE the prophecies to be about the Church instead of being about Isra'el.
As far as the three verses above, one should remember that there are TWO such instances: (1) the battle (or campaign) of Har-Megiddown (Armageddon in Greek) that happens just before the Millennium, and (2) the final battle with Gowg from Magowg that happens just before the Great White Throne Judgment and the Eternal State with the New Earth/New Sky/New Jerusalem. Again, one should not confuse the two. I believe that the three verses you mentioned are really about the transition to the Eternal State, not the Millennium. The biggest reason is the last verse: We don't really know how much He will choose to shine during the Millennium, but we are TOLD Yeshua` will be the "lightbulb" of the New Jerusalem! In fact, we are also told that the nations of the earth will walk in the light of it:
Rev 21:23-26
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
KJV
Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
I know I've said this in other places, but at the risk of repeating myself, the KJV translation of verse 23, namely,
23 Then the moon shall be confounded,
and the sun ashamed,...
anthropomorphizes the Hebrew words, making the moon and the sun seem like people. PEOPLE are "confounded" ("befuddled" or "confused") and "ashamed," not emotionless THINGS. For THINGS, these Hebrew words should have been interpreted as "distorted" and "outdone," respectively. It's talking about God (through His human-bodied Son) shining so brightly that the sun is LITERALLY outdone, and shining so brightly that the moon has to LITERALLY reflect TWO sources of light, the sun and the Son, giving unusual phases to the moon!
This isn't some "spiritual" light; it's REAL, ELECTROMAGNETIC RADIATION OCCURRING IN PACKETS OF ENERGY WE CALL PHOTONS TODAY THAT HAVE PROPERTIES OF BOTH PARTICLES AND WAVES! The proof that this is PHYSICAL LIGHT can be found in what such light physically did to Paul's eyes after He saw Yeshua` in His glory on the road to Damascus!
Another reason is the Jerusalem from which Yeshua` reigns. During the Millennium, Yeshua` will reign from a renovated "Old" Jerusalem. During the Eternal State, He will reign from the New Jerusalem. Old Jerusalem sits upon Mount Zion, the literal mountain in Isra'el. It's current height is 2,533 feet. The New Jerusalem will be a three-dimensional city with a height of 12,000 furlongs or approximately 1500 MILES! When Yeshua` reigns from His throne in the renovated "Old" Jerusalem, He will light up the nation Isra'el and the surrounding countryside. When Yeshua` reigns from His throne in the New Jerusalem, He will light up all the nations from Norway to Tanzania and from Morocco to China!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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