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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/16/2010 11:50:30 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
When the Bible says 1290 days and meant 1290 years, then why didn't it just SAY "1290 years?!" When the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of Elohiym YHVH commanded a person to write 1335 days when He was REALLY talking about 1335 years, why wouldn't the Ruach haQodesh just tell him to write "1335 YEARS?!"
Why? Jesus told us why: "It has been given to you to understand, but it has not been given to them to understand". He said that as an answer to the question, "Why do you speak in parables?" Well, think about it... parables are using figurative language and figurative scenarios to teach a lesson. It is a commonly used teaching method. You relate the subject to something the people understand, then you link it to the truth you're trying to describe. I like cars, so if someone wants to explain something to me, they can associate it with cars to help me understand it. Jesus is doing the same thing with parables, but He says the people have closed their hearts and ears and eyes so that they cannot understand the truth in the parables.
Prophecies are the same way. Those are given to God's people to understand, HOWEVER, God told Daniel to "seal up" the prophecies till the time of the end. There's a book called Daniel is Out of Order by Skolfield. Anyone can figure this out on their own, though. If you look through the order of kings in history, you'll find that Daniel's use of the kings names to date the book is out of order. You'll see one king in chapter 9, a new king in chapter then, and then the same king in chapter 9 again. In Daniel is Out of Order, Skolfield puts it into Chronological order, making the book make a bit more sense.
Also, God tells us flat out in Nubmers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 that when He prophesies, He gives a day for a year. And then he prophesies in both those passages with days and says they equal years. He continues this with Daniel's 70 weeks of years. And God never changes this rule that a day equals a year. Thus, we need to stick to it. That is one of the important rules of Hermeneutic study. Besides, as I showed you, all of the numerical prophecies of Daniel have come to pass exactly as they were prophesied, and the math works out perfectly. There is no need to argue the point, really, or try to disprove it. It's a statistical impossibility to be coincidence. It must be God's doing.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/16/2010 1:26:25 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 427
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Brian
Prophecy is precise, 100 percent accurate. Roy is right 1,290 days, is 1,290 days and 1,335 days is 1,335 days.
But if you are right; how long then is the 1000 year reign of Christ? How long is the 5 months of Rev 9:5? How long is the 42 months (1,260) day reign of the beast of Rev 13? How long do the two witnesses prophecy in Rev 11:3 - (1,260 days)? How long do their dead bodies lie in the street v9. 3 1/2 days.?
You have many theological issues to deal with.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/16/2010 4:28:28 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1084
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Marv…just a quick question; you say that prophecy is precise and if it says a day then it is a day. Yet from Dan 9:25 we have weeks and we would believe these weeks are sets of 7 days each, with each day equaling one year…agree?
So here is my question; in Rev 11:3 we are told that the witnesses will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days. What is to prevent me from assuming that these days are in fact 1290 years?
Just playing the advocate here  .
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/16/2010 11:43:00 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 812
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Marv…just a quick question; you say that prophecy is precise and if it says a day then it is a day. Yet from Dan 9:25 we have weeks and we would believe these weeks are sets of 7 days each, with each day equaling one year…agree?
So here is my question; in Rev 11:3 we are told that the witnesses will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days. What is to prevent me from assuming that these days are in fact 1290 years?
Just playing the advocate here .
In Messiah,
Bob
I'd like to step in here and remind everyone that the "week" is not a week as we know it. The Hebrew word is a "shaavuwa`." The word means "seven," not "week," and it can be a group of seven ANYTHING! So, don't lump this into the same screw-ups with numbers. THIS is a legitimate way to group seven years, and every seventh year was a sabbatical year in which the land was to lie fallow, the year before providing twice the crops.
Therefore, this was not a foreign concept to the Jews (or at least, it shouldn't have been); it was in the Torah.
The answer to your question is simple. NOWHERE in the book of Revelation does it say that one should equate 1 day to 1 year! The problem lies in taking a SPECIFIC, ONE-TIME EQUATION for the punishment to wander in the wilderness for forty years ("each day for a year" in Num. 14:34) and applying that as though it was a FOR-ALL-TIMES UNIVERSALISM! We are NEVER told to make such an equation again! In fact, if we did it all the time, we would have confusion, and God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33)! I mean, when would we be supposed to take "7 days" as 7 true days of evenings and mornings and when to take them as 7 years?!
Remember the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) philosophy? I like Charlie "Tremendous" Jones' philosophy better: "SIBKIS" meaning "See It Big, Keep It Simple." While there are a few things in Scripture that are dualistic, black-and-white, dichotomy absolutes, most things in Scripture are NOT dichotomies! I remember the joke about the man who was playing Scriptural Russian roulette: He was "seeking God's will" by opening the Bible up to random passages. The first Scripture was ...
Matt 27:5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
KJV
He thought, "That doesn't sound right. Let me try again," and he opened his Bible again ...
Luke 10:37
37 ... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
KJV
We MUST avoid treating the Scriptures as absolutes all the time! There are many times when they just weren't meant to be taken as universal in scope!
Nobody I know thinks this verse is to be taken as an absolute that we should follow as an example:
Matt 27:29
29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
KJV
And yet, I know a HUGE group of Christians who think the following is a universal absolute that we should follow:
Luke 14:26-27
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
KJV
However, this second passage is no more a universal absolute than the first was! It was said for a specific moment in history and was NEVER intended to be taken as "church doctrine!"
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/17/2010 12:12:57 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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quote:
Does this make sense for Daniel's 70 weeks now?
Only up to a point. First, why the starting date of 444 BC when other sources place the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC (Ezra 7)?
Second, why would the method of calculating weeks change "midstream" in the prophecy? Is the same Hebrew word used for 1 week used to describe the 7 and 62 weeks? Or all 70 weeks?
I think there's an argument to be made for exegetical consistency. I saw that in your first, long post, I don't see it in this one.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/17/2010 12:19:46 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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Roy...
I read the link you posted to the excellent interpretation of Daniel 11, and - having read it thoroughly - I'm convinced the "King" in 11:36-45 is, in fact, Herod the Great. Excellent research went into that and thank you for posting it.
So now the "Daniel dominoes" are starting to fall: what was prophecy for Daniel is history to us, at least as far as most of the book is concerned.
Thanks again for posting the link.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/17/2010 1:21:32 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 812
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Stormcrow.
You're quite welcome.
Consider what I said in the "7 year trib verse" thread. It's the way I resisted going all the way to Preterism, which I CANNOT accept because they, like most amils and postmils, use the allegorical method of interpretation. The allegorical method is too subjective an interpretation ("What do I think God meant?")and not enough objective interpretation ("Thus saith the LORD.") In other words, the allegorical method introduces eisegesis when we should be focusing on EXEGESIS! We should be drawing OUT of God's Word what HE was saying to us, instead of trying to support our beliefs and ways of thinking with God's Word, which is tantamount, IMO, to putting words in God's mouth, a dangerous prospect at best!
Again, God bless your studies!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 8:25:34 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Brian
Prophecy is precise, 100 percent accurate. Roy is right 1,290 days, is 1,290 days and 1,335 days is 1,335 days.
But if you are right; how long then is the 1000 year reign of Christ? How long is the 5 months of Rev 9:5? How long is the 42 months (1,260) day reign of the beast of Rev 13? How long do the two witnesses prophecy in Rev 11:3 - (1,260 days)? How long do their dead bodies lie in the street v9. 3 1/2 days.?
You have many theological issues to deal with.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Ummm, actually, Marv, I don't have any issues to deal with. My prophetic interpretations came out perfectly. You must've missed my previous posts here which explained how exactly accurate those prophecies are when you understand them to be years not days. And, by the way, everyone knows each day during Daniel's 70 weeks equals a year. For you to think that the 1290 and 1335 days are not years seems a bit illogical since three other prophecies in the Bible instruct us that each day equals a year, one of them being Daniel's very own prophecy.
Go back to page 5 of this thread, a little below the top of the page and read my first post there. Then, for Daniel's 70 weeks explanation, go to page 6 and read my 48th post which explains how Daniel's 70 weeks worked out perfectly in the day=year method just as all of Daniel's prophecies do, as well as the prophecies in Revelation you spoke of. The only prophecy I didn't explain was the 5 months of the 5th trumpet. But to answer that question, each day of that five months would be a year, which would be something like 152 years, approximately. I think Skolfield explains when this 152 year period was exactly in history, but I forget exactly. I can find out. Read my posts and then respond, because all of the questions you asked me are answered in those posts, and you'll see that I have no issues to deal with. :) In fact, it will create a LOT more issues for you and your interpretation of prophecy.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 8:35:38 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Marv…just a quick question; you say that prophecy is precise and if it says a day then it is a day. Yet from Dan 9:25 we have weeks and we would believe these weeks are sets of 7 days each, with each day equaling one year…agree?
So here is my question; in Rev 11:3 we are told that the witnesses will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days. What is to prevent me from assuming that these days are in fact 1290 years?
Just playing the advocate here .
In Messiah,
Bob
Hi Bob,
By the same token why not use the 'a day is like a 1,000 years, and then you would end up with 1,260,000 years
You cannot do that, because that verse in 2 Peter 3:8 does not say "a DAY is like a 1,000 years". The Greek word "hemera" is the word they translated "day" in that sentence, but that's incorrect. The word "hemera" is always translated as "time" in the New Testament. When it is translated as "day", it does not mean a 24 hour period. Instead, it is the type of day we use for a time period. If I were to say, "In that day, there will be much suffering", what I mean is in that time period. I don't mean a single 24 hour day. It's like when someone says, "back in the day, we used to..." It doesn't mean a 24 hour period day - it means a time period. There are very very few places where hemera is translated as day. In this sentence, Tyndell did not understand it meant time when he was translating it, so he used "day" instead, because it sounded more grammatically correct. Had he understood WHY Peter was saying this, as a key to unlocking the time, times and half a time prophecy for these people, then he would've translated it correctly. The same happened to Tyndell when he translated the four horsemen. The last horse is not pale. The color of that horse is "chloros" in the Greek, which means "green" or "pale green". He, living in a society with horses everywhere figured, "Well, horses aren't green or pale green, so I'll just make it 'pale'". It made sense to him. He didn't understand that the horses were symbols and that they didn't fit into normal horse colors because of that. Hense the mistranslation.
Therefore, the passage 2 Peter 3:8 should say, "to the Lord, a time is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a time." And now, you take the time, times and half a time prophecy and figure out what the saying means. Hebrews have a type of saying you can see in the Bible in a few places. They says, "Once, yeah twice, I said..." or "Once, twice, I have warned you..." That doesn't mean one plus two. It means one plus one. The person did it one time, and then the person did it again. That's two times, not three. The Jews translate time, times and half a time as 2.5 times. So in their translation Bible, it says two-and-a-half times. Therefore, we multiple 2.5 times 1,000 years and get 2,500 years. Not sure if you missed my post on page 5 where I explain these, but if you did, by all means, go back and read my first post on page 5 which explains many other prophecies, including all three time, times prophecies.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 8:47:15 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I'd like to step in here and remind everyone that the "week" is not a week as we know it. The Hebrew word is a "shaavuwa`." The word means "seven," not "week," and it can be a group of seven ANYTHING! So, don't lump this into the same screw-ups with numbers. THIS is a legitimate way to group seven years, and every seventh year was a sabbatical year in which the land was to lie fallow, the year before providing twice the crops.
Therefore, this was not a foreign concept to the Jews (or at least, it shouldn't have been); it was in the Torah.
The answer to your question is simple. NOWHERE in the book of Revelation does it say that one should equate 1 day to 1 year! The problem lies in taking a SPECIFIC, ONE-TIME EQUATION for the punishment to wander in the wilderness for forty years ("each day for a year" in Num. 14:34) and applying that as though it was a FOR-ALL-TIMES UNIVERSALISM! We are NEVER told to make such an equation again! In fact, if we did it all the time, we would have confusion, and God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33)! I mean, when would we be supposed to take "7 days" as 7 true days of evenings and mornings and when to take them as 7 years?!
Actually, just to be clear, both Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 are prophecies which God says He gives us a day for a year, and in Daniel's 70 weeks, we also know each day is a year. Therefore, there are three different places in the Bible where a day equals a year in prophecy, one of them being in Daniel's prophecies. A major rule of Hermeneutic study is that if God gives a rule in the Bible, we must stick to that rule until He changes that rule. God sets forth a rule three times that a day equals a year in prophecy (and ONLY in prophecies). For you to break away from that rule is not a sound type of study and should be rethought.
Also, you said that if we always made a day a year, the seven day creation would be seven years of creation. That's illogical, because God ONLY uses the day equals a year method in prophecies, not in non-prophetic verses. So your theory that we would be in confusion is incorrect. As I have explained, all of the prophecies that mention days come out perfectly in history to when God said they would and depict the events exactly as described in the prophecies. Those prophecies being conincidental is statistically impossible.
So, you, my friend, have still not told me why all of the numerical prophecies I displayed came out perfectly as prophesied in history. You've simply said that it did not follow suit with the MODERN Jewish calendar, to which I replied, "We have to use the ancient Hebrew calendar, not the modern Hebrew calendar". To which you replied, "I'm not going to debate you anymore". I can only assume that you saw you were beaten and you didn't want to be made to look incorrect anymore.
If you are so certain your prophetic interpretations are correct, then go ahead and try to disprove all of the numerical prophecies I've proven.
When it's all said and done, no matter how you debate my interpretation, nothing will disprove the fact that ALL of the prophecies I laid out came out perfectly, and that is a statistical impossibility. You are being willingly ignorant of the truth in order to hold on to your own prophetic beliefs, because you being right is more important than you knowing the truth, at least that is the case in your mind and heart. You are too prideful to admit you are wrong and seek truth elsewhere. I mean absolutely no disprect with that statement, though. I'm just calling it as I see it.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 8:50:14 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13 The only prophecy I didn't explain was the 5 months of the 5th trumpet. But to answer that question, each day of that five months would be a year, which would be something like 152 years, approximately.
The 5 months is part of the larger block of time called the 42 months. How do you justify making each month = to 30 years rather than leaving it as 30 (normal sized) days. Since Christ arrives at the start of the 7th trump then a period of 37 months exists between the end of the 5th month and the end of the 42 months..
Since those numbers have to do with end-times does Christ's one day of wrath now turns into 360 days?
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 8:57:28 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
Does this make sense for Daniel's 70 weeks now?
Only up to a point. First, why the starting date of 444 BC when other sources place the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC (Ezra 7)?
Second, why would the method of calculating weeks change "midstream" in the prophecy? Is the same Hebrew word used for 1 week used to describe the 7 and 62 weeks? Or all 70 weeks?
I think there's an argument to be made for exegetical consistency. I saw that in your first, long post, I don't see it in this one.
Other sources say 457 BC? I believe you'll want to read what the majority say, not what a few other sources say. Most scholars and historians say that 444-445 BC is when the decree was given. There were three other decrees given, as well, but they were not specific degrees to restore Jerusalem like this 444 BC decree. Maybe your "other sources" are confused about this, or maybe they're just inaccurate. Either way, the majority of the world of biblical scholastics and history agrees with my 444 BC dates which lends more credibility to my argument, not yours.
Secondly, you must not have read my entire post about Daniels 70 weeks. If you had, you would've seen how I laid out the pattern from the Levitical Law which was followed in this prophecy. A Jew would see that pattern right away, because they understand the seven, multiple of seven, and unique seven pattern laid out in the Law. Us Gentiles are not nearly as familiar, or not a all familiar, with that pattern, and so, of course, we would not pick up on it like Daniel would have, having lived under that pattern all his life. If you'll re-read my explanation for Daniel's 70th week, it'll completely account for why the 70th week is a unique week, just like the Jubilee year is a unique multiple of seven type week, which explains why it is calculated completely differently.
And you, like others in this thread, have also completely avoided the fact that every single one of the numerical prophecies I explained came out perfectly to the year and events about which the prophecy spoke. Therefore, you would have to claim that ALL of the prophecies I have laid out only happened accurately in history by coincidence. That is not only illogical and irrational, but it is statistically impossible. You, like Retro, are simply in denial at this point, more concerned with your pride and being right than being concerned with the truth which has been blatanly and obviously displayed for you. I say that with no disrespect, of course. I am just stating the obvious.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 9:05:12 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13 The only prophecy I didn't explain was the 5 months of the 5th trumpet. But to answer that question, each day of that five months would be a year, which would be something like 152 years, approximately.
The 5 months is part of the larger block of time called the 42 months. How do you justify making each month = to 30 years rather than leaving it as 30 (normal sized) days. Since Christ arrives at the start of the 7th trump then a period of 37 months exists between the end of the 5th month and the end of the 42 months..
Since those numbers have to do with end-times does Christ's one day of wrath now turns into 360 days?
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Like I said, I think Ellis explains the 5 months in his book, but I forget, to be honest. I'd have to go look it up.
Also, after the 7th trumpet, we are told that there is time no more. Time ceases to exist after the 7th trumpet according to Revelation 10. This is why shortly after that, John is told to "prophesy again". Revelation is in two parts, just like Isaiah is in two parts. Isaiah tells all about the end times from chapters 1-33, and then it tells about them all over again, but from a different perspective, in 34-66. Half and half. Revelation does the same thing. There's a lot more to it than that, too. Did you know Revelation and all prophetic books are written in chiasmic and bifidic forms? It's a Hebrew poetry style. Without understanding how that causes the structure of the books to be formed, you'll never understand the prophecies in them properly. All prophecy is written in Hebrew poetic form. I assume that's because God writes poetry to His bride which only His bride will understand, and to whom He has given knowledge in the time of the end time for prophetic interpretation (just a thought is all).
You assessment that a day turns into 360 days because it is prophetic is absolutely taking what I said out of context and butchering the pattern I showed with Daniel's 70 weeks. I showed you in my post on page 6 of this thread, my post #48, how Daniel, and ONLY Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy follows a pattern in the Levitical Law. To apply that pattern anywhere else in prophecy is irresponsible. So no, Jesus' day of return is only one day.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 9:59:49 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Brian
But if you are right; how long then is the 1000 year reign of Christ? How long is the 5 months of Rev 9:5? How long is the 42 months (1,260) day reign of the beast of Rev 13? How long do the two witnesses prophecy in Rev 11:3 - (1,260 days)? How long do their dead bodies lie in the street v9. 3 1/2 days.?
You have many theological issues to deal with.
In Christ
Montana Marv
The two witnesses (which I explained are the Jewish and Christian churches, which you'll find out if you'll read my posts back on page 5) prophesy for 1,260 years. Read my post from page 5 and that will make sense to you. It's laid out there plain as day for us, but we just don't think to use prophecy to interpret prophecy, usually.
I realized, though, that I did not explain the thousand years of Christ's reign. Basically, the Greek word for a thousand years does not mean "1,000". The word, in the Greek, is an infinitive plural. I'll give you an example in English.
If I look out over a crowd of about 500 people and it looks like a huge number to me, I might say, "There are thousands of them." I may be exaggerating, or I may be just using a term to convey that there were tons of people there. Or, I may look out at an arena of nearly 50,000 people and say, "There were thousands of them". That is using the infinite plural of the word "thousand". In the Koine Greek, the word for "millennium" or "thousand" in those verses about Christ's reign, the word is actually an infinite plural, meaning that the thousand years could be more than just a thousand years.
Secondly, we must also take into account that Revelation 10 says that after the last trumpet, there will be "time no more". If Christ arrives at the last trumpet, then there cannot be a thousand year period, because the Bible explicitly says there will be "time no more" after the 7th trumpet is blown. Time will cease and we will forever be in eternity at that point. So the question is, where does the thousand(s) years fit into this?
Some people believe that the thousand some-odd years started when Jesus died on the cross, because that was the time at which He defeated Satan and began His rule. The known world, by 400-500 BC, had nearly all been converted to Christianity. Paganism was pretty much snuffed out and it all switched over to Christianity. The Holy Roman Empire went on for exactly a thousand years before it crumbled, finally. The Holy Roman Empire was ruled by a religious leader and a political leader during this time. Satan is supposed to be released to deceive the nations for a short time at the end of the thousand years. After the Holy Roman Empire fell, we saw the rise of a couple key things: Evolution and Islam.
Let's look at the four horsemen of the apocolypse. The first one is Catholicism. The guy on the white horse wearing all white... that's the pope. The pope's car is white, his helicopter is white, his plane is white, his clothes must be white by Papal Law... and if he had/has a horse, it, too, would be white (white is his official color). The second horseman is Communism... the red horse (Red China, Red Russia... red is Communism's official color), and it brings war with it. Communism is responsible for a lot of war and death. The black horse is capitolism. Capitolism's official color is black. That's why it's called the Black Flag of Capitolism. In fact, it is illegal to sign a document with anything other than black ink. And the most prominent suit worn is black. The fourth horse is not pale. The word is Chloros in the Greek, which is where we get our word Chlorophyll from. The word means "green". Islam's official color is green. I just heard an Islamist last week say "the green will rise again." If you ever see a Middle-Eastern Islamic rally, you'll notice green flags and bandanas everywhere. Also, all of the paintings in the Dome of the Rock and Alaqsa Mosque are in shades of green. The fourth horseman is Islam.
To be more specific, Catholicism, Communisum, Capitolism and Islam are the four spirits described in this four horseman prophecy. We know this because of Zechariah 6:1-9 (which is funny, because Revelation 6:1-8 tells of the four horsemen, as does Zechariah 6:1-8). If you read through it, you'll notice that it has the exact same colored horses, and they are explained to be symbols representing spirits. And it says these spirits go throughout the earth. It even says where those spirits go.
The black horses go to the north country (the northern hemisphere). Most all of the rich nations of the world are in the northern hemisphere, which means Capitolism, for the most part, is prominent in the northern hemisphere. Most, if not all, of the third-world countries are in the southern hemisphere, which is where the dappled (green horses in Revelation) go (Islam brings with it poverty - this is why Islamic nations have an average of a 30% unemployment rate and many of them are third-world countries). The white horses of Catholicism follow the black horses (they follow the money). Did you know that many of those beautiful cathedrals in Europe were built using money from indulgences? Basically, if you wanted to rape a minor, you needed to pay the church the equivolent of about $2.17 to get a get-out-of-jail-free card called an indulgence. If you wanted to murder someone, you needed to pay about twice that for that type of indulgence. The church, back in the 13th century, was allowing people to buy their forgiveness from sins. That's how twisted and money hungry this white horse was at the time. Vatican City is in the northern hemisphere, and most Catholicism is in the northern hemisphere. Communism stayed mostly in the eastern hemisphere, but it doesn't say anything about where the red horses went for some reason. It also says Capitolism quited God's spirit in the north. Ask anyone that has lived in a third-world country and in a developed nation like the US and they will tell you that the spiritual awareness and activity in third-world countries is FAR more strong than in developed nations. Missionaries tell about it all the time. This is why Africa is known for the evil spiritual things that go on there. The Christians in those countries are far stronger spiritually than we are here in the U.S., as well, for the most part.
So, there are the four horsemen. It's possible those could be part of Satan being released, because most of them rose to power after the thousand years, but as I said before, it doesn't have to be a thousand years.
I must also point out Evolution. Once evolution theory has brought incredible spiritual death to the world. If you teach kids that they come from apes and the earth is older than the creation story, then they're going to lose faith in God and the Bible. I believe it's 80% of kids lose their faith in God while attending college. That's pretty major. And we know colleges, dominately, are run and staffed by liberal evolutionists. In fact, if you've ever seen Ben Stein's movie Expelled (I think that's the name), you'll know how professors whom believe in creation or God are rarely hired at universities. The twisted facts used to support evolution and big bang theory, neither of which disprove the existence of a God even if they were true, has caused a ton of deception among the world. Communism thrived on evolution theory, bringing about Eugenics, which is basically racial cleansing. Marx, Stalin and Hilter are its biggest proponents. Even the United States was giving shots to people in the early 1900s in order to sterilize them so they could not reproduce. Only "stupid" people were given the shots. Cleansing the gene pool of stupid people. How sick is that? This was during the progressive movement in America. Progressive is basically the same thing as Communism and Fascism. If you look at the similarities, Communism and Fascism are almost identical. I believe this is part of Satan's great deception at the end of the "thousand(s)" (of) year(s).
So, I believe the millennial reign of Christ is greatly misinterpreted. I believe it has already happened or runs till Christ returns. Not really certain on that, to be honest. And I believe Satan has been let loose to deceive the nations for quite a while now. I believe there is no possible way the "millennium" is after the 7th trumpet which is said to end the progression of time, and thus, must be prior to the 7th trumpet.
Revelation 10:6-7
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Different translations say "no more delay" instead of "time no longer". But if you look at the original Greek, the saying they are using there is for the end of time, not a delay in time. Just do some studying up on it to find this out. You'll find all kinds of different opinions on the internet, though. Best to find a good source of old Greek sayings from the first century instead, then find this phrase used here in this verse. That's the best way to weed out the ignorant opinions.
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- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 10:25:50 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 427
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Brian
Israel and the holy city Jerusalem have "70 - sevens" to complete the 6 tasks, not 69 weeks as you have said. Also you did not put a multiplier of four with the last seven (why?), as you did with the first 69 weeks. You should treat the 70 weeks of years equally.
How many years do the "two witnesses" lie in the street. 3 1/2 years. How many years do they testify, if 1,260 years, where are they. No one has seen them. For if these "two witnesses" have not appeared, then you are looking at 3,270 AD. (2010 + 1,260).
Your mathematical calculations are only a perfect fit to you. Most of us think hogwash. For one, you have substituted Christ fulfilling the six tasks and not Israel and Jerusalem as decreed by the Godhead. Two, a day is a day, and a year is a year prophetically, unless explicitly said to change. To say different is to change the prophecy. Three, you not applied your days to years for all prophetic events.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/18/2010 11:33:01 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 812
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Cephyr13.
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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I'd like to step in here and remind everyone that the "week" is not a week as we know it. The Hebrew word is a "shaavuwa`." The word means "seven," not "week," and it can be a group of seven ANYTHING! So, don't lump this into the same screw-ups with numbers. THIS is a legitimate way to group seven years, and every seventh year was a sabbatical year in which the land was to lie fallow, the year before providing twice the crops.
Therefore, this was not a foreign concept to the Jews (or at least, it shouldn't have been); it was in the Torah.
The answer to your question is simple. NOWHERE in the book of Revelation does it say that one should equate 1 day to 1 year! The problem lies in taking a SPECIFIC, ONE-TIME EQUATION for the punishment to wander in the wilderness for forty years ("each day for a year" in Num. 14:34) and applying that as though it was a FOR-ALL-TIMES UNIVERSALISM! We are NEVER told to make such an equation again! In fact, if we did it all the time, we would have confusion, and God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33)! I mean, when would we be supposed to take "7 days" as 7 true days of evenings and mornings and when to take them as 7 years?!
Actually, just to be clear, both Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 are prophecies which God says He gives us a day for a year, and in Daniel's 70 weeks, we also know each day is a year. Therefore, there are three different places in the Bible where a day equals a year in prophecy, one of them being in Daniel's prophecies. A major rule of Hermeneutic study is that if God gives a rule in the Bible, we must stick to that rule until He changes that rule. God sets forth a rule three times that a day equals a year in prophecy (and ONLY in prophecies). For you to break away from that rule is not a sound type of study and should be rethought.
Hmmm.... A bit combative aren't we? I'll give you Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 because they were SPECIFICALLY given by God to be 1 day = 1 year formulas FOR THOSE INDIVIDUAL CASES! However, I will NOT give you Dani'el's 70 "SEVENS!" They are groups of seven years; they are NOT "WEEKS!" And, ONLY if one ASSUMES them first to be "weeks" could one believe that the days of those weeks could be equated to years! To show you what I mean in outline form:
It's not...
A. Weeks
A.1. Days
A.2. Years
It's...
A. SEVENS
A.1. Weeks
A.1.a. Weekdays
A.1.b. Shabbat
B.1. Sabbatical year cycle
B.1.a. Normal years
B.1.b. Sabbatical year
Thus, it's not that "sevens = weeks" but that "weeks C sevens." Understand? More importantly, however, one must understand two things: First, Dani'el is not a prophet, and second, nowhere in the passage does it specifically say that 1 day = 1 year, as it did in the previous two passages. IT'S WRONG TO CONCLUDE THAT ALL PROPHETIC OCCURRENCES OF "DAYS" SHOULD BE INTERPRETED AS "YEARS!"
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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Also, you said that if we always made a day a year, the seven day creation would be seven years of creation. That's illogical, because God ONLY uses the day equals a year method in prophecies, not in non-prophetic verses. So your theory that we would be in confusion is incorrect. As I have explained, all of the prophecies that mention days come out perfectly in history to when God said they would and depict the events exactly as described in the prophecies. Those prophecies being conincidental is statistically impossible.
Boy, that's a "strawman hypothesis" if I EVER heard one! You're putting words in my mouth, now. I NEVER said anything about "seven years of creation!" To be honest, I'm GLAD that you have some form of restriction on your "day = year" theory, or the sky's the limit! However, IMO, that's not enough. Look, I'm a mathematician. Have been since before I started programming. So, I know that anyone with enough motivation can make the numbers say anything they want to say. It's obvious that some work was involved in the "prophecies/events" calculations you've made. However, to be honest, how long did it take you (or whoever first came out with the calculations) to come to these particular events? How many miscalculations were made before you (or whomever) stumbled on events that worked? What truly made you (or whomever) choose particular events for start points and end points of the time line segments that represent these time periods? Was it the events themselves or was it actually the numbers first? If it was the numbers first, then, YOU'RE RIGHT! It WOULD be statistically impossible to be coincidental because it was coincidental BY DESIGN!
See, I KNOW how these things work! I've had to deal with things like "88 Reasons Why The Rapture Could Be In 1988" and "On Borrowed Time: The Bible Dates of The 70th Week of Daniel, Armageddon, The Millennium" both by Edger C. Whisenant, "The Rapture" by Hal Lindsey, "The Beast of Revelation: Myth, Metaphor or Soon-Coming Reality?" by John H. Ogwyn, all the Chick Publications, and the Y2K crazies. It's tapered off a little after 2000, but I remember a 2004 theory, a 2008 theory, and a 2010 theory, since then, and now we're awaiting the results of the 2012 theory! What can I say? Call me skeptical.
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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
So, you, my friend, have still not told me why all of the numerical prophecies I displayed came out perfectly as prophesied in history. You've simply said that it did not follow suit with the MODERN Jewish calendar, to which I replied, "We have to use the ancient Hebrew calendar, not the modern Hebrew calendar". To which you replied, "I'm not going to debate you anymore". I can only assume that you saw you were beaten and you didn't want to be made to look incorrect anymore.
To reiterate, they came out perfectly because they were DESIGNED to come out perfectly. I don't care which Jewish calendar you use. The facts are the same. The Jewish calendar NEVER used a solely 12-month, 30-day calendar! It's IMPOSSIBLE! From new moon to new moon, the month is shorter than 30 days, and from spring equinox to spring equinox, the years are longer than 360 days! It's not even to be understood that way in prophecy! A year is a year is a year! And, the year was established by seasons on Day 4 of Creation! Stick the RIGHT numbers in your calculations and tell me your numerical prophecies come out perfectly!
Again, you're sticking words in my mouth! (I truly despise that practice!) I've never said, "I'm not going to debate you anymore." (Are you actually reading what I wrote?!) I'll debate you on this "til the cows come home!" I know you're not right in using a 360-day year! No one is! However, I'll give you this: You probably had examples of other Christians using this form of insanity and just picked up on it. So, in that way, it's not all your fault; however, once one knows the truth, it becomes one's fault if he/she continues to propagate nonsense.
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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
If you are so certain your prophetic interpretations are correct, then go ahead and try to disprove all of the numerical prophecies I've proven.
When it's all said and done, no matter how you debate my interpretation, nothing will disprove the fact that ALL of the prophecies I laid out came out perfectly, and that is a statistical impossibility. You are being willingly ignorant of the truth in order to hold on to your own prophetic beliefs, because you being right is more important than you knowing the truth, at least that is the case in your mind and heart. You are too prideful to admit you are wrong and seek truth elsewhere. I mean absolutely no disprect with that statement, though. I'm just calling it as I see it.
What you mean is, "no mather how I debate your interpretation, nothing is going to change your mind," and that's fine. You can believe what you want to believe; you will anyway. I will give you a couple of examples, but not in THIS post. It will take some time, although less time to disprove than it took to "prove" them in the first place. Try not to be so defensive; sure they took work, but they are just numbers after all. "Willingly ignorant"? "You being right is more important than you knowing the truth"? "You are too prideful"? These are "ad hominem" fallacies of logic. If you can't attack the problem, you attack the person. That's NOT a good way to win an argument. Thank you for not meaning any disrespect, however.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
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The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 12:51:49 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Brian
Israel and the holy city Jerusalem have "70 - sevens" to complete the 6 tasks, not 69 weeks as you have said. Also you did not put a multiplier of four with the last seven (why?), as you did with the first 69 weeks. You should treat the 70 weeks of years equally.
How many years do the "two witnesses" lie in the street. 3 1/2 years. How many years do they testify, if 1,260 years, where are they. No one has seen them. For if these "two witnesses" have not appeared, then you are looking at 3,270 AD. (2010 + 1,260).
Your mathematical calculations are only a perfect fit to you. Most of us think hogwash. For one, you have substituted Christ fulfilling the six tasks and not Israel and Jerusalem as decreed by the Godhead. Two, a day is a day, and a year is a year prophetically, unless explicitly said to change. To say different is to change the prophecy. Three, you not applied your days to years for all prophetic events.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Either your reading comprehension is exceptionally low, or you did not read my posts at all which I recommended you read. You clearly haven't a clue what I was explaining in my previous posts concerning the 70 weeks and the two witnesses.
The two witnesses are revealed right there in Revelation 11. It says the two witnesses are the two lampstands and two olive trees before the throne of the Lord of the earth. Revelation 1:20 says lampstands represent churches, and Paul explains in Romans how the native Olive tree is the Jews and the wild olive tree is the Gentil (Christian) church. Therefore, the two witnesses are the Jewish church and the Christian church. Revelation 11 tells us that quite clearly. If you had read my other posts, I explain how the two witnesses prophesied exactly 1,260 years as they were prophesied to do. As for the 3 1/2 years, yes, the two witnesses laid in the streets dead for 3 1/2 years. I'll explain.
Remember, the Hebrew calendar had 360 day years. So, multiply 3.5 years by 360 days and what do you get? 1260 days in 3 1/2 years. Each day is a year. So that's 1,260 years, just like the prophecy says.
Now, take 688.5 AD. 688.5 AD is when 1 million Jews were slaughtered in Israel by the Muslims and the rest were run out of Israel. The Christians knew this was coming, because Jesus warned them. In Matt 24, Jesus tells the Christians, "When you see the Abomination of Desolation standing on the holy place (the temple mount)... flee Judea, for then will be great tribulation..." So, when the Christians saw the Dome of the Rock being built on the temple mount, they got the heck out of Israel as quickly as they could. The Jews, however, did not have this prophecy, and so they stayed and were slaughtered. That was the beginning of their great tribulation (the 3 1/2 days they lie dead in the streets).
Now, in Revelation 11, we know it's talking about Muslim rulership of the temple mount, because it says to measure the temple, but not its outer courts, because they will be trodden down by the Gentiles (the Muslims, in this case) for 42 months. So, from the time of the building of the Dome of the Rock (688.5 AD) to the time the Jews regain control of the temple mount will be 42 months of years. Let's do the math:
First, how many days are in a 365.24 day year? 365.24 divided by 12 = 30.44 days per month. Now, multiply 42 months by 30.44 days and you get 1278.5 days. Each day equals a year so that's 1278.5 years. So the prophecy says the Gentiles will rule the temple mount for 1278.5 years, right? Let's see if that works out properly:
688.5 AD + 1278.5 years = 1967 AD (that's the year Israel took back Jerusalem and the temple mount in the famous Six Day War). So the prophecy is dead on accurate.
Now, we can do the math on the 1,260 days of the two witnesses. Remember, the two witnesses are mourning something, because they are prophesying in sacloth and ashes. What they're mourning is the breaking of the covenant in the middle of the week. The covenant was that the Israelis could keep their promised land. But the covenant was broken in 688.5 AD when the Muslims drove out the Jews. The prophecy has them mourning for 1,260 days (years). This event starts at 688.5 AD when the Jews are run out of Israel, and the prophecy should end when they come back into their land again, which was in 1948, right? Let's do the math:
688.5 AD + 1260 years = 1948.5 AD, the year the Jews became a nation again.
Thus, the Jews prophesied in the wilderness (the nations other than their promised land) with their Bible and its prophecies and their traditions for 1,260 years. No more mourning necessary and no more witnessing or prophesying once they come back into their land again.
Now, I explained, also, in my first post back on page 5, which you did not read, that the second witness is the Christians, and they, too, came into their new promised land, America. The prophecy about them is one of the time, times and half a time prophecies. I won't explain it right now, but it ends right at 1776 AD, the year the United States was created. We have fulfilled the prophecies about Ephraim returning perfectly.
You would know all of this had you read my posts carefully. Please do yourself a favor and go read them carefully so you're not bringing up questions which have already been addressed in my first post. And no, my mathmatical calculations are perfect, as I just displayed again... and you have no way of knowing if most everyone thinks it's hogwash. Some people have responded with interest, a few have rejected it, and some have agreed with it. Stop making inaccurate statements and do some reading so you can post accurate statements please.
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- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 1:27:32 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Hmmm.... A bit combative aren't we? I'll give you Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 because they were SPECIFICALLY given by God to be 1 day = 1 year formulas FOR THOSE INDIVIDUAL CASES! However, I will NOT give you Dani'el's 70 "SEVENS!" They are groups of seven years; they are NOT "WEEKS!" And, ONLY if one ASSUMES them first to be "weeks" could one believe that the days of those weeks could be equated to years! To show you what I mean in outline form:
It's not...
A. Weeks
A.1. Days
A.2. Years
It's...
A. SEVENS
A.1. Weeks
A.1.a. Weekdays
A.1.b. Shabbat
B.1. Sabbatical year cycle
B.1.a. Normal years
B.1.b. Sabbatical year
Thus, it's not that "sevens = weeks" but that "weeks C sevens." Understand? More importantly, however, one must understand two things: First, Dani'el is not a prophet, and second, nowhere in the passage does it specifically say that 1 day = 1 year, as it did in the previous two passages. IT'S WRONG TO CONCLUDE THAT ALL PROPHETIC OCCURRENCES OF "DAYS" SHOULD BE INTERPRETED AS "YEARS!"
Nothing combative about this. You have completely skipped over important things and discounted them without disproving them in any way whatsoever.
I believe the Jews will disagree with you about Daniel not being a prophet... And the prophecies he wrote about would tend to disagree with you too. And hermeneutic study disagrees with you about all prophetic days equalling years.
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Boy, that's a "strawman hypothesis" if I EVER heard one! You're putting words in my mouth, now. I NEVER said anything about "seven years of creation!" To be honest, I'm GLAD that you have some form of restriction on your "day = year" theory, or the sky's the limit! However, IMO, that's not enough. Look, I'm a mathematician. Have been since before I started programming. So, I know that anyone with enough motivation can make the numbers say anything they want to say. It's obvious that some work was involved in the "prophecies/events" calculations you've made. However, to be honest, how long did it take you (or whoever first came out with the calculations) to come to these particular events? How many miscalculations were made before you (or whomever) stumbled on events that worked? What truly made you (or whomever) choose particular events for start points and end points of the time line segments that represent these time periods? Was it the events themselves or was it actually the numbers first? If it was the numbers first, then, YOU'RE RIGHT! It WOULD be statistically impossible to be coincidental because it was coincidental BY DESIGN!
See, I KNOW how these things work! I've had to deal with things like "88 Reasons Why The Rapture Could Be In 1988" and "On Borrowed Time: The Bible Dates of The 70th Week of Daniel, Armageddon, The Millennium" both by Edger C. Whisenant, "The Rapture" by Hal Lindsey, "The Beast of Revelation: Myth, Metaphor or Soon-Coming Reality?" by John H. Ogwyn, all the Chick Publications, and the Y2K crazies. It's tapered off a little after 2000, but I remember a 2004 theory, a 2008 theory, and a 2010 theory, since then, and now we're awaiting the results of the 2012 theory! What can I say? Call me skeptical.
OMG - you're a mathematician?? I'm sorry, but I don't believe that for a second. If you really were a mathematician, you would see the statistical impossibility in these prophecies. Also, you would understand that I could not have made up these events which were used for these prophecies! I challenge you to go look up the most agreed-upon dates in history for the events I listed for these prophecies and you will find every one of them to be the dates on which most historians agree they happened.
The way the originator of this prophetic interpretation figured out on which dates the prophecies start and end are by the events spoken of in each prophecy. It's not rocket science. If you had done any sincere reading and study on this, you would've seen that immediately. But all you care about is being correct and trying to discredit what I've laid out. Daniel 12:11 clearly says "From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished" There's our starting point. In Daniel's time, the daily sacrifice was taken away in 583 BC, 3 years after the temple was destroyed. I even showed a verse which occurs seven months after the temple had been destroyed where priests were giving sacrifices on the temple mount just to prove that they were still giving sacrifices after the temple was destroyed. In 583 BC, all of the Jews were taken into captivity to Babylon and were not allowed to go back to the temple mount to give sacrifices. That was the end of the daily sacrifice for quite some time. I didn't make that up. The prophecy says it itself.
Then, the prophecy states that an abomination of desolation will be set up. Jesus explains more about this abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. So, we take 583 BC and add the 1271.5 solar years (1290 Hebrew years) to it and we get 688.5 AD. We know that a million Jews were slaughtered that year and the rest run out of Israel and the Dome of the Rock had just begun building on the outer court of the temple mount (the abomination of desolation was being built on a wing of the temple mount, just as the original hebrew states). I have given you all of this information in my original post, and yet you completely gloss over it like it's fabricated by me! One, I didn't come up with this stuff, and two, I cannot make up historical events and just throw in these numerical prophecies to come up with these calculations.
I'm sorry, but there's no way you're a mathematician or you would've immediately seen my math and understood that I could not have adjusted the calculations! I did the math exactly as a historial does when tracking things like this through history. I'll show you the math again, Mr. Mathematician!
If I want to turn 360 day Hebrew years into 365.24 day solar years, I have to divide 360 by 365.24, right? Of course.
360 divided by 365.24 = .9857
.9857 is our conversion factor to turn Hebrew years into solar years.
Now, 1,290 Hebrew years multiplied by .9857 equals 1,271.5 solar years.
Any mathematician will immediately say, "There's nothing you can manipulate about those numbers. Those calculations are the required calculations to figure out this conversion of years." But not you. You said, "Oh, you must have messed with the calculations to make them fit. Well, sorry, but I know how the author came up with these calculations. He took 583 BC and added 1271.5 solar years to it and came out to 688.5 AD and then said, "Alright, let me see what happened that year in history." That's when he found the Dome of the Rock being build and the Jews being slaughtered and run out of Israel. There was absolutely no manipulation to the numbers at all. The math is perfect. Do the math before you start accusing people of fraud. ALL of the calculations are perfect and unaltered, and all of the events spoken of in the prophecies define the beginning and end points of these prophecies. If you had read my post in full, you would know that. But you've done absolutely no sincere research into this prophetic interpretation, and that is why you completely fail at understanding it, disproving it and debating it.
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The Jewish calendar NEVER used a solely 12-month, 30-day calendar! It's IMPOSSIBLE! From new moon to new moon, the month is shorter than 30 days, and from spring equinox to spring equinox, the years are longer than 360 days! It's not even to be understood that way in prophecy! A year is a year is a year! And, the year was established by seasons on Day 4 of Creation! Stick the RIGHT numbers in your calculations and tell me your numerical prophecies come out perfectly!
Wrong again! If you had read my posts, you'd know that... You sure don't do your research very well...
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Again, you're sticking words in my mouth! (I truly despise that practice!) I've never said, "I'm not going to debate you anymore." (Are you actually reading what I wrote?!) I'll debate you on this "til the cows come home!" I know you're not right in using a 360-day year! No one is! However, I'll give you this: You probably had examples of other Christians using this form of insanity and just picked up on it. So, in that way, it's not all your fault; however, once one knows the truth, it becomes one's fault if he/she continues to propagate nonsense.
Your post to me said you were not going to respond to my posts on this topic anymore. So you essentially said you weren't going to debate the topic anymore. I didn't put any words in your mouth. I just restated what you said in a different way. Stop trying to twist things around.
And you are absolutely incorrect about the 360 day year. Do your research and stop calling my research incorrect. I know all about the calendar the Hebrews used to use and the one they use today. You're the one that needs to do some research. Find me some sources that show you're correct. The research will be good for you.
And again, you still have not explained how all of the dates come out perfectly to the years of the events the prophecies describe happening! I've disproven all of your arguments thus far. Please answer my questions now.
quote:
What you mean is, "no mather how I debate your interpretation, nothing is going to change your mind," and that's fine. You can believe what you want to believe; you will anyway. I will give you a couple of examples, but not in THIS post. It will take some time, although less time to disprove than it took to "prove" them in the first place. Try not to be so defensive; sure they took work, but they are just numbers after all. "Willingly ignorant"? "You being right is more important than you knowing the truth"? "You are too prideful"? These are "ad hominem" fallacies of logic. If you can't attack the problem, you attack the person. That's NOT a good way to win an argument. Thank you for not meaning any disrespect, however.
First of all, I did attack the problem, and quite well. I've corrected all of your inaccurate statements thus far and defended this interpretation perfectly well. You are the one that's not attacking the problem. You have made claims that I must have altered the calculations or configured things to come out the way I wanted them, and yet you haven't shown me any mathematical data to prove that! So they're just false accusations! You've never given a reason why the numerical prophecies come out to the exact years on which they are supposed to. You continue to say I'm wrong, but you fail to show it! I didn't attack you in any way. All of the statements I made about you are factual statements. A prideful person is one who refuses to believe someone else is right and they're wrong. And so they do what they can to explain away the other person, because they're so certain they're right. That is incredibly arrogant. If you were not threatened by the interpretation I put forth, you would have actually made an effort to learn what it says, learn if the historical dates are accurate and if the math checks out and if anything was manipulated incorrectly. You did none of those things. You made no attempt to actually disprove the interpretation. Instead, all you did was make baseless accusations to make it appear as if I'm wrong and you're right. Well, sorry... that's not the way it works in academia. If you want to debate with the scholars, you need to show proof of your claims. I came to the table with all of my facts in order and I debated it exactly as I should have and I have, so far, disproven all of your baseless accusations. You, on the other hand, have stuck with your baseless accusations, and shown no facts to disprove the interpretation whatsoever. You are failing miserably at defending your interpretation and disproving mine.
Do some honest research on my interpretation, the mathematics, and the dates. If there is a problem, anyone with half a brain can find it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure these simple calculations out! This is all very easy stuff. So if you're a mathematician, it should be a cake-walk.
Please, by all means, prove me wrong if you're so sure you're right. Let's see your proof! Show me the bad math or the false dates or something that invalidates my interpretation! Show me SOMETHING that's legitimate instead of just repeating, "you're wrong".
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 2:51:36 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
And you, like others in this thread, have also completely avoided the fact that every single one of the numerical prophecies I explained came out perfectly to the year and events about which the prophecy spoke.
I haven't avoided or ignored them. I haven't accepted or rejected them, either. I'm weighing them. There's a difference. I'm cautious with such things because anyone so trained and motivated can make numbers appear to reach any conclusion they want. I'll reserve judgment one way or another, if that's OK with you.
quote:
You, like Retro, are simply in denial at this point, more concerned with your pride and being right than being concerned with the truth which has been blatanly and obviously displayed for you. I say that with no disrespect, of course. I am just stating the obvious.
As you'll recall, I was the first to thank you for your posting here. And said your post was "very interesting."
Furthermore, as I'm not well-versed in either your interpretation of these things, nor in most other non-traditional interpretations of Daniel (Roy's comes immediately to mind), I tend to remain non-committal toward acceptance or rejection until I can prove or disprove such things by myself (with the Spirit's leading, of course).
So when I write:
quote:
Only up to a point. First, why the starting date of 444 BC when other sources place the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC (Ezra 7)?
Second, why would the method of calculating weeks change "midstream" in the prophecy? Is the same Hebrew word used for 1 week used to describe the 7 and 62 weeks? Or all 70 weeks?
I think there's an argument to be made for exegetical consistency. I saw that in your first, long post, I don't see it in this one.
I'm looking for further clarification, not condescension. You're presenting new stuff that I would bet most people have not read before. I know I haven't.
So instead of viewing my questions and concerns as "denial", take them for what they are: queries intended to get clarification. If you assume that, then there is no need for ill-will on either side.
Thanks again for your posts.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 2/19/2010 2:58:52 AM >
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 6:07:05 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
He took 583 BC and added 1271.5 solar years to it and came out to 688.5 AD and then said, "Alright, let me see what happened that year in history."
There's nothing wrong with the math. Where the numbers can be fudged is based on the interpretation of the dates themselves.
For instance, you claim 444 BC is the year the decree came down to rebuild Jerusalem. So, assuming that date is correct, your numbers "fit" using that date as a starting point.
But that date is in dispute and some of the best Bible scholars place the decree anywhere from 457 BC to 427 BC, depending on how the history is read. See the problem?
I, for one, am not questioning your math. It seems sound to me. But as this isn't rocket science (it's far more complicated because of the subjective nature of interpreting the OT), I am careful any time someone claims they've found all the answers based on their interpretation of dates and times. It's an imprecise science to say the least.
Until I've had more time to research it, I'm not going to accept or reject your position. After all, there are many "false prophets" in the world today. Would you blame us for being cautious in light of that simple fact?
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 7:15:49 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Why? Jesus told us why: "It has been given to you to understand, but it has not been given to them to understand". He said that as an answer to the question, "Why do you speak in parables?" Well, think about it... parables are using figurative language and figurative scenarios to teach a lesson. It is a commonly used teaching method. You relate the subject to something the people understand, then you link it to the truth you're trying to describe. I like cars, so if someone wants to explain something to me, they can associate it with cars to help me understand it. Jesus is doing the same thing with parables, but He says the people have closed their hearts and ears and eyes so that they cannot understand the truth in the parables.
Prophecies are the same way. Those are given to God's people to understand, HOWEVER, God told Daniel to "seal up" the prophecies till the time of the end. There's a book called Daniel is Out of Order by Skolfield. Anyone can figure this out on their own, though. If you look through the order of kings in history, you'll find that Daniel's use of the kings names to date the book is out of order. You'll see one king in chapter 9, a new king in chapter then, and then the same king in chapter 9 again. In Daniel is Out of Order, Skolfield puts it into Chronological order, making the book make a bit more sense.
Also, God tells us flat out in Nubmers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 that when He prophesies, He gives a day for a year. And then he prophesies in both those passages with days and says they equal years. He continues this with Daniel's 70 weeks of years. And God never changes this rule that a day equals a year. Thus, we need to stick to it. That is one of the important rules of Hermeneutic study. Besides, as I showed you, all of the numerical prophecies of Daniel have come to pass exactly as they were prophesied, and the math works out perfectly. There is no need to argue the point, really, or try to disprove it. It's a statistical impossibility to be coincidence. It must be God's doing.
Hi Brian,
It might be true that teaching somebody might be better done in parables if they are the subject. However that is not the reason Jesus did it, the Bible says he did it so the people would not understand and this was a fulfillment of OT prophecy about the Messiah. . This is backed up by a few instances where Jesus is said to explain the meanings of the parables to them when they were in private. If you can misunderstand that then it is also possible to misunderstand other things in the Bible also.
If the day for a year is such a 'standard' then the 1260 days associated with the verse below does not mean the time of Jesus's ministry but it would still have to be the starting point of the 1260 days.
Re:12:5:
And she brought forth a man child,
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God,
and to his throne.
Re:12:6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
There is one date that most history books agree with. Pontious became Governor of Judea in 26AD so that would have been the earliest start of the 70th week. John was called and about 6 months later Jesus was baptized in the river and about 2 months after that He was at His 1st passover after the 40 days in the wilderness.
How does that fit with your theory?
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 6:25:57 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
And you, like others in this thread, have also completely avoided the fact that every single one of the numerical prophecies I explained came out perfectly to the year and events about which the prophecy spoke.
I haven't avoided or ignored them. I haven't accepted or rejected them, either. I'm weighing them. There's a difference. I'm cautious with such things because anyone so trained and motivated can make numbers appear to reach any conclusion they want. I'll reserve judgment one way or another, if that's OK with you.
quote:
You, like Retro, are simply in denial at this point, more concerned with your pride and being right than being concerned with the truth which has been blatanly and obviously displayed for you. I say that with no disrespect, of course. I am just stating the obvious.
As you'll recall, I was the first to thank you for your posting here. And said your post was "very interesting."
Furthermore, as I'm not well-versed in either your interpretation of these things, nor in most other non-traditional interpretations of Daniel (Roy's comes immediately to mind), I tend to remain non-committal toward acceptance or rejection until I can prove or disprove such things by myself (with the Spirit's leading, of course).
So when I write:
quote:
Only up to a point. First, why the starting date of 444 BC when other sources place the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC (Ezra 7)?
Second, why would the method of calculating weeks change "midstream" in the prophecy? Is the same Hebrew word used for 1 week used to describe the 7 and 62 weeks? Or all 70 weeks?
I think there's an argument to be made for exegetical consistency. I saw that in your first, long post, I don't see it in this one.
I'm looking for further clarification, not condescension. You're presenting new stuff that I would bet most people have not read before. I know I haven't.
So instead of viewing my questions and concerns as "denial", take them for what they are: queries intended to get clarification. If you assume that, then there is no need for ill-will on either side.
Thanks again for your posts.
Maybe I'm getting posters mixed up. Sorry.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 6:28:48 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
He took 583 BC and added 1271.5 solar years to it and came out to 688.5 AD and then said, "Alright, let me see what happened that year in history."
There's nothing wrong with the math. Where the numbers can be fudged is based on the interpretation of the dates themselves.
For instance, you claim 444 BC is the year the decree came down to rebuild Jerusalem. So, assuming that date is correct, your numbers "fit" using that date as a starting point.
But that date is in dispute and some of the best Bible scholars place the decree anywhere from 457 BC to 427 BC, depending on how the history is read. See the problem?
I, for one, am not questioning your math. It seems sound to me. But as this isn't rocket science (it's far more complicated because of the subjective nature of interpreting the OT), I am careful any time someone claims they've found all the answers based on their interpretation of dates and times. It's an imprecise science to say the least.
Until I've had more time to research it, I'm not going to accept or reject your position. After all, there are many "false prophets" in the world today. Would you blame us for being cautious in light of that simple fact?
My point was that the majority of scholars and historians have tracked the date back t 444-445 BC. When it comes to matters regarding historical accuracy, the majority will usually be correct. Even if the one date were inaccurate somehow, that doesn't change the fact that all of the others are accurate. However, that date is not at all inaccurate most likely.
www.fishhouseministries.com (upper left hand corner under Books in Print - click on The False Prophet Pt. 1)
You can get all the info you need there. The book is free to read online or print out at that website. Good luck.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 2/19/2010 6:33:38 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Why? Jesus told us why: "It has been given to you to understand, but it has not been given to them to understand". He said that as an answer to the question, "Why do you speak in parables?" Well, think about it... parables are using figurative language and figurative scenarios to teach a lesson. It is a commonly used teaching method. You relate the subject to something the people understand, then you link it to the truth you're trying to describe. I like cars, so if someone wants to explain something to me, they can associate it with cars to help me understand it. Jesus is doing the same thing with parables, but He says the people have closed their hearts and ears and eyes so that they cannot understand the truth in the parables.
Prophecies are the same way. Those are given to God's people to understand, HOWEVER, God told Daniel to "seal up" the prophecies till the time of the end. There's a book called Daniel is Out of Order by Skolfield. Anyone can figure this out on their own, though. If you look through the order of kings in history, you'll find that Daniel's use of the kings names to date the book is out of order. You'll see one king in chapter 9, a new king in chapter then, and then the same king in chapter 9 again. In Daniel is Out of Order, Skolfield puts it into Chronological order, making the book make a bit more sense.
Also, God tells us flat out in Nubmers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 that when He prophesies, He gives a day for a year. And then he prophesies in both those passages with days and says they equal years. He continues this with Daniel's 70 weeks of years. And God never changes this rule that a day equals a year. Thus, we need to stick to it. That is one of the important rules of Hermeneutic study. Besides, as I showed you, all of the numerical prophecies of Daniel have come to pass exactly as they were prophesied, and the math works out perfectly. There is no need to argue the point, really, or try to disprove it. It's a statistical impossibility to be coincidence. It must be God's doing.
Hi Brian,
It might be true that teaching somebody might be better done in parables if they are the subject. However that is not the reason Jesus did it, the Bible says he did it so the people would not understand and this was a fulfillment of OT prophecy about the Messiah. . This is backed up by a few instances where Jesus is said to explain the meanings of the parables to them when they were in private. If you can misunderstand that then it is also possible to misunderstand other things in the Bible also.
If the day for a year is such a 'standard' then the 1260 days associated with the verse below does not mean the time of Jesus's ministry but it would still have to be the starting point of the 1260 days.
Re:12:5:
And she brought forth a man child,
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God,
and to his throne.
Re:12:6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
There is one date that most history books agree with. Pontious became Governor of Judea in 26AD so that would have been the earliest start of the 70th week. John was called and about 6 months later Jesus was baptized in the river and about 2 months after that He was at His 1st passover after the 40 days in the wilderness.
How does that fit with your theory?
This prophecy is the same as the Revelation 11 prophecy. Remember how I said the two witnesses are being kicked out of the promised land and that's why they're mourning in sacloth and ashes for 1260 years? The woman is God's people and the wilderness is any nation other than the promised land. Same 1,260 years. This prophecy in 12:5 is just another prophecy of the same event, but from a different perspective - kind of like how Isaiah 1-33 prophecies the end times, then starts over and prophesies them all over again in 34-66. It works perfectly with the Chiasmic/Bifidic form of Revelation. The book The False Prophet, which I linked in my last post, will teach a little about Bifids and Chiasms.
_____________________________
- Brian
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