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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 2/24/2010 6:48:35 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 13
Joined: 3/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Faith is the foundation of our obedience. No, it is NOT! God's grace and power are the foundation of our obedience which demonstrates our genuine faith in Christ.
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The Jews obeyed the law but did not put their faith in Christ. No, they did NOT obey the Law or they would not need to be saved from their sins!
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It is explicitly stated! Neither one of those verses "explicitly" state that we are saved when we obey. That is your faulty interpretation based on your preconceived doctrinal assumption.
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Of course the context is faithful obedience. Any one who trusts in their works has faith that is in vain.
As we obey we trust in God not in ourselves. Obedience is a faithful response to God's word! Finally, something we can agree on! But this comes as a result, NOT the cause, of our salvation.
quote:
I agree with you however the moment of salvation comes when we obey. Apparently you misread my post. The moment of salvation comes when we appropriate God's saving grace by believing in Christ. After that moment, we obey because God's Love empowers us to obey.
Mark,
You are arguing with someone from the Independent Christian Church (Restoration Movement). Their belief about salvation and baptism never makes any sense. It is cut and paste theology. Ask them when the RM started and who had it right before that.
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 3/16/2010 6:47:32 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 59
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:
Those who don't know what the Bible teaches about salvation cannot be saved. "
Of course! You have to be familiar with the bible verses regarding salvation, or else, what are you going to build your faith on?
We know that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son that whosever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life," because the bible tells us so.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13) The reason we know this is because the bible says so.
So, who wrote the bible? The Apostles and prophets. (We) "are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone." (Ephesians 2:20)
The words of the apostles and prophets in the bible are the foundation on which we are built with Jesus Himself holding the whole thing together as the chief cornerstone.
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Peter 1:21)
"How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a pracher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!'" (Romans 10:14-15)
We believe because the preachers of the early church went into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature and wrote it down for future generations. Therefore we now have it compiled in the form of the book now known as the bible.
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." (John 20:31)
These things were written in the book, the bible, so that we would hear about Jesus, know about Jesus, recieve Jesus, and get saved.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of Life; (For the Life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you that your joy may be full." IJohn 1:1-4)
Every time we read the words of the Apostles and Prophets in the bible we are having fellowship with them as well as with God and Jesus at the same time.
"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." IPeter 1:16
They were all eyewitnesses of the things Jesus said and did, and we have to read their words in order for us to know what Jesus said and did, so that we can be saved and know Jesus, also.
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 3/18/2010 11:01:15 PM
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pwfaith
Posts: 253
Joined: 3/18/2010
From: NC
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I am torn on this issue. But I thought this article I read a while back was interesting in light of this discussion...
quote:
Romans 3:10-12 exclaims, “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Romans 1:21-23 states, “For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” According to Scripture, the “status” of those without God is not one of seeking salvation, but rather one of rebellion, darkness, and idolatry.
Acts chapter 10 records the story of Cornelius. Cornelius is described as “devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly” (Acts 10:2). Did God save Cornelius because of his devotion to God based on the limited knowledge he had of God? No. God sent an angel to Cornelius with instructions for Cornelius to contact the Apostle Peter and have him come to Cornelius’ home. Cornelius obeyed, and Peter came and presented the Gospel to Cornelius and his family. Cornelius and his family believed and were therefore saved (Acts 10:44-48). Acts chapter 10 is a clear example of how we are not saved by believing certain truths about God, or by obeying God in certain respects. The only way of salvation is the Gospel of Jesus Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).
Romans 10:14 declares, “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” God commands us to present the Gospel because of the fact that “there is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:10-11).
(link)
I think the very most important thing to remember is that God sees the heart, even of the tribes in the depths of Africa. I have heard testimony after testimony of missionaries who just "happened" across a tribe no one even knew was out there (of course they didn't just "happen" onto them, God led them there  ) but time and time again the tribe leaders would tell missionaries that they knew what they'd been passed down was not right and they had been calling out to the creator of what they saw around them, asking for someone to come tell them about this creator. Amazing stuff! One thing I know, God is just, God is holy, God is loving and God is fully righteous. God is the only one who sees an individuals heart and knows the object of his or heart worship.
Another interesting quote:
quote:
The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time.
(link)
Can this apply to the distant tribes of Africa that haven't been told of Jesus Christ yet? I honestly have NO idea! And really it is not my concern. My orders are to carry out God's message in love to everyone. That's all I need to know 
_____________________________
Sarah - wife to 1 and mommy to 5
http://proverbs-women.org
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 3/19/2010 12:56:04 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
quote:
Those who don't know what the Bible teaches about salvation cannot be saved. "
Of course! You have to be familiar with the bible verses regarding salvation, or else, what are you going to build your faith on?
With the essence of what Scripture says, but not the ability to quote Scrpture and verse.
I have seem folks come to the saving grace of God Through Jesus Christ by simply telling them the the God who created everything gave His Son for you, so you can be forgiven, freed of your guilt, live the live that the Creator desires for you to live, and have eternal life with that Creator.
I have seen this in dozens of foriiegn countries and with folks that had never heard the Gospel.
The Knowledge of Scripture (New Testament at least) is necessary for the growth of one into the Stature of Christ (For without a descritpion of that stature how do we know our goals), but not for salvation.
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 3/19/2010 2:18:06 PM
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 154
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I generally agree with MacArthur on many things. Apparently not this one. I agree 100% that one can be saved by merely hearing John 3:16, hearing that Jesus loves them, etc.
I'd like to pose a question (if the moderators don't feel it will go off topic):
One of the statements argued in the debate over remote tribes who have never heard of a Bible, or the Gospel message, is that of what is mentioned in Romans 10 concerning hearing the word, and needing those to preach the word for the word to be heard. Basically Romans 10: 14-17.
One preacher stated that if one cries out/seeks God (with a pure heart, etc.), and they are on a deserted island, God will do whatever it takes (like sending a salvation message in a bottle washed to shore) to get the Gospel message within that person's hearing (or reading).
Hank Hanegraaf pointed out that Jesus can appear to someone to give the message, or a message, because He did so with the Apostle Paul when on the road to Damascus. So this may pose the question of would or could Jesus appear to someone from a remote tribe cut-off from the rest of the world, and give the Gospel message. However....on the other hand, Paul obviously heard the Gospel message before the incident on the road to Damascus. Did Paul's prior hearing of the word open up the avenue for the drastic vision/conversion he experienced? Or, can this happen without a prior hearing of the Word, like one from a remote tribe?
*Note: if this is off topic, I can start a different thread.
_____________________________
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 3/19/2010 8:50:27 PM
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pwfaith
Posts: 253
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From: NC
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We have signs at the exits of our church. At you enter the front says "welcome to...." on the back as you leave you see "You are now entering the mission field". I LOVE that! I grew up S. Baptist. We were always taught everyone is a missionary, technically - it didn't matter if you were home or abroad, and it didn't have to be a mission trip, it could be at your neighborhood cookout, McDonald's around the corner or the play area at the mall. My role here is just the same as my best friend who is serving in Korea. Our jobs are different and the ways we fulfill our "missions" is different, she's with an organization and I'm not but in our hearts we both have the same calling as Christians. Very true, we all have to be "on mission".
_____________________________
Sarah - wife to 1 and mommy to 5
http://proverbs-women.org
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 3/20/2010 12:43:35 AM
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gralan
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From: RV in Texas
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I enjoyed RC's explanation. I would agree as much as I can discern. It would seem to me that Bible knowledge in this context does not mean necessarily that we read the Bible to gain that knowledge. And that knowledge doesn't need to be very developed either.
In terms of what God does for those who do not hear or read Biblical knowledge, including babies and severely handicapped/incompetents; well, that's on God.
As far as I know, we aren't told what happens to those who never hear or gain "Bible knowledge", and I'm not venturing a guess. I've seen too many people get too far afield into arguing, wrangling of words, hurt feelings, actual sin towards each other... and I'm just talking about my experience outside of the internet forums.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. To take that literally means that our job is to communicate clearly about the Word of God. This means often keeping our opinions to ourselves. It also means our whole life should be lived so people can ask us about the hope we have.
If people aren't asking, it means we aren't doing our part. Show and Tell.
This would mean we need to be students of God's Word, not just students of some doctrinal or denominational position. That may be requiring too much of some folks. Jesus was able to explain things fairly simply. Either I am a part of Jesus' Body or not, and if I am Jesus is able to act through me His willing servant. I trust Jesus can still keep it simple. I'm a witness that He does.
God knows who are His. God draws us to Christ, Christ gives us back to the Father. The Holy Spirit seals us unto the day of our redemption. This being plainly in Scripture, I would say that God can work through willing disciples of Jesus Christ whether we get the words all right or not. God did not let the thief on the cross escape God's grasp, for example. What level of knowledge did he have?
Is it Bible Knowledge necessary? To be literal, we are only saved by God's grace, due to our faith in our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. If people do not know because we do not tell them, then the problem is our obedience it would seem.
Again, God does not always provide us the answer for everything. What happens to those who don't learn Bible knowledge or never hear God's Word is one of those unanswered questions. IMO
But the again, who am I?
< Message edited by gralan -- 3/20/2010 1:01:22 AM >
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 4/6/2010 12:49:43 AM
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sallyannester
Posts: 140
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From: Australia
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I don't think so
As long as we believe in Jesus, & all he has done for us. We can hear this from other believers.
Not to say we wouldn't read the bible once we know him. We usually like to get to know more those whom we love.
As for do we need to know it all? I doubt it. Remember Satan knows all of God's Word and does it guarantee him salvation?
_____________________________
We are so insignificant compared to the size of the known universe. But, we were significant enough for the Creator of the Universe to visit us.
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 4/23/2010 6:54:37 PM
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Walter2332
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I think this is an interesting issue, and an issue I was thinking about recently. Does a person have to know about the Bible to be saved? What about people who never hear about the Bible, people in South American or African tribes who do not have access to a Bible? Do you think God sends them to hell? That doesn't seem very fair, does it?
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 4/28/2010 4:56:14 PM
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brujaq
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The Bible says "My people perish for lack of knowledge" .... But , Salvation can come as simple as calling on and believing in the name of Jesus ..
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RE: Bible knowledge necessary for salvation? - 4/28/2010 6:37:31 PM
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AmericanJosiah
Posts: 280
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
quote:
Doctrine: The Essential Foundation
John MacArthur - Grace to You
It's become increasingly apparent that the contemporary mind is suspicious of propositional truth. The culture has imbibed the postmodernism construct: propositions lead to doctrines, which lead to theologies, which form the meta-narratives that the elite and powerful use to dominate, manipulate, and take advantage of the masses. "No more propositions, doctrines, and imperialistic meta-narratives," they say. "Just show us Jesus by what you do."
That may sound good, but it's fundamentally flawed. If you can't use propositions, who's to say what kind of living is more or less like Jesus? At some point, the propositions are brought out, doctrines are stated, theologies take shape, and it's one meta-narrative versus another.
At the heart of contemporary concern is what many have observed-cold, dead, compassionless "Christians" touting doctrines they don't really believe. They are like those Paul warned Timothy about: they hold "to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power" (2 Timothy 3:5).
True biblical doctrine is practical. In fact, nothing is more practical than sound doctrine. Those who listen to right doctrine and put it into practice are transformed by it.
<<SNIP>>
Those who don't know what the Bible teaches about salvation cannot be saved. Those who don't know what the Bible teaches about holiness are incapable of dealing with sin. Thus they are unable to live fully to their own blessedness and God's glory.
In our day, when so many are denying the clarity of the Bible, the practicality of doctrine, and the inadequacy of theology in favor of ethical and social concerns, it's time to reassert the essential place of Christian doctrine...
Read the rest of Doctrine: The Essential Foundation
Am I taking this out of context of the article?
"Those who don't know what the Bible teaches about salvation cannot be saved. "
What are your thoughts?
I may well not be "getting" his point, but I disagree.....
We are justified by God's grace in Christ through faith - not by cognative knowledge of X number of facts.
Faith, IMHO, is active reliance in our hearts and lives. And it is the gift and activity of God. I do not believe that it results from a passing grade on a quiz.
IMHO, I had "faith" for as long as I can remember (I'd be apt to say since I was born). Since then, I have often been trying to wrap my very limited brain around lots of things of God - occasionally with what seems like success to ME and often not. In fact, in my old age (I'm 22), I'm increasingly aware that small human brains are pretty pathetic at embracing God and all the things of God, ever more willing to embrace mystery and that God is perhaps bigger than I am or even all of us collectively, more willing to K.I.S.S. (at least dogmatically).
My $0.01
Pax
- Josiah
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