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RE: Revelation question - 3/10/2010 5:41:03 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
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Shalom, Stormcrow.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
Mattherw 24 specifies that the first event of the end times is verse 24-14.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
This appears to be already fulfilled. For the simplest interpretation of the prophecy is it's finished when one person from every nation/tribe/ethnic group has had the gospel preached to them.
The "end" of verse 14 - as I wrote in a previous post - doesn't mean "end." The Greek word is "tromos" which means "to tremble, as in quaking with fear."
This will be fulfilled at the rapture of the church, seen in Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6, at the opening of the 6th Seal, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
The rapture of the church - when Christ is seen on the clouds to gather His church to Him there - ends the tribulation of the church (thlipsis) and ushers in the "trembling" (tromos) of the Day of the Lord.
In short, this prophecy isn't fulfilled yet. The Rapture of the Church has not occurred and the Day of the Lord hasn't begun.
Sorry, to point this out here again, but I'm not sure if you'd see my post in the Preterist one-stop thread.
The Greek word used in Matthew 24:14 is NOT NT:5156 "tromos"; it's NT:5056 "telos." "Telos" means the "end," as it was RIGHTLY translated. Must have been a typo in your study help. I've checked all my Greek NT's to be sure; they all say "telos" and there are no footnotes to say otherwise.
On the other hand, in your defense, you are quite right about verse 14 being a future event from our perspective, because "world" still was interpreted from "oikoumenee" meaning the "inhabited earth" or the "human biosphere" of this planet. It is NOT properly restricted to the "Roman Empire" because of other places in Scripture that use it otherwise:
Stemming from "oikeoo" meaning "to occupy a house; to reside," and in turn, from "oikos" meaning "a dwelling; a family" or a HOME, as we would say today, "oikoumenee" simply means "wherever human beings reside on the globe!" It's wrong to limit it to just the Roman Empire, in spite of the audacity of the Roman Emperor to think he ruled over it all (Luke 2:1). The term means MORE than just the Roman Empire as evidenced by its use in Romans 10:18:
Rom 10:16-21
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
KJV
In using this word, Paul quotes from Psalm 19:
Ps 19:1-6
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
KJV
If Paul was using the Greek language (as was probable to a congregation in Roma, Italia), then he used "oikoumenee" to translate the Hebrew word "teeveel" which is said by Strong's to mean...
OT:8398 tebel (tay-bale'); from OT:2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a partic. land, as Babylonia, Palestine:
KJV - habitable part, world.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
With one minor correction (namely, that an "undotted bet" in Hebrew is a "vet" and pronounced as a "v"), hence "teeveel" (where "ee" is pronounced "ay" as in "hay"), this Hebrew word means the "WHOLE INHABITED WORLD" or "wherever people live." It's the human biosphere as seen by the words about the sun and the whole earth that is within its "circuit." There is nowhere (on the face of the globe) hidden from its heat. Thus, it means "EVERY PEOPLE" on the globe, including those people who live outside of the Roman Empire, which only stretched from Spain to the borders of Syria and from England to lower Egypt. The Roman Empire didn't even include other KNOWN nations, such as Persia or Armenia, let alone all the other nations we know also existed during that time period, such as China, India, Mongolia, and Pre-Classical Mayans!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/10/2010 6:24:56 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
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From: Kansas
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Hi Roy…because we were locked out, I'll post my reply here...seems a good place to continue.
I’m not losing my way but I am searching for the truth.
First let’s get a couple of things on the table:
1…If Christ is the one who confirms the covenant I don’t think we would expect to see an antichrist. I think you already lean in this direction
2…I’m suddenly not so sure that we will see a new temple; this has always been somewhat problematic anyway and I suspect that the desolation has already occurred at some point but it might be a TOS violation to discuss it.
3…Yes there is no doubt that God is not yet done with Israel (Israel and Judah as one stick) and this will occur at the end of the age. They will be saved under the New Covenant. I think you know my position on Israel.
Now here is my issue, let’s say that there are 3 ½ years left at the end of this age; what are the signs of the beginning and what will it bring about? We know at the end we have the gathering of the saints, the return of Christ and the finial battle but I’m concerned about what happens at the beginning and the middle of this period. How will the elect be able to discern the times?
I suspect that we are well into the seals…maybe the 5th already. I hope you see my frustration.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Revelation question - 3/10/2010 11:46:49 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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Roy:
Here is the verse as it appears from the Literal Bible I have with Strong's reference numbers.
|2532| And
|2784| will be proclaimed
|5124| this
|2098| Good News
|3588| of the
|0932| kingdom
|1722| in
|3680| all
|3588| the
|3625| inhabited earth
|1519| for
|3142| a testimony
|3956| to all
|3588| the
|1484| nations,
|2532| and
|5119| then
|2240| will come
|3588| the
|5156| end.
5156 is tromos. I had no reason to doubt this until you mentioned it, and you are correct, it is 5056, not 5156.
Too tired to think about this stuff tonight. Tired of chasing rabbits down rabbit holes. Giving up for now. Looking for a different place to discuss this stuff. Bah. Giving up.
Peace. Out.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/11/2010 11:51:41 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Roy…because we were locked out, I'll post my reply here...seems a good place to continue.
I’m not losing my way but I am searching for the truth.
First let’s get a couple of things on the table:
1…If Christ is the one who confirms the covenant I don’t think we would expect to see an antichrist. I think you already lean in this direction
2…I’m suddenly not so sure that we will see a new temple; this has always been somewhat problematic anyway and I suspect that the desolation has already occurred at some point but it might be a TOS violation to discuss it.
3…Yes there is no doubt that God is not yet done with Israel (Israel and Judah as one stick) and this will occur at the end of the age. They will be saved under the New Covenant. I think you know my position on Israel.
Now here is my issue, let’s say that there are 3 ½ years left at the end of this age; what are the signs of the beginning and what will it bring about? We know at the end we have the gathering of the saints, the return of Christ and the finial battle but I’m concerned about what happens at the beginning and the middle of this period. How will the elect be able to discern the times?
I suspect that we are well into the seals…maybe the 5th already. I hope you see my frustration.
In Messiah,
Bob
You're right on point 1; I do lean in that direction. For point 2, I would only point out Ezekiel 40-48. These passages have no fulfillment in history as of yet. Thus, they still are to be fulfilled in our future. Yes, and I agree with your view in point 3.
The 3.5 years left at the end of this age will not begin with any sign or with anything that a Gentile will do or could do, whether a believing Gentile or an unbelieving Gentile (such as an AC); it will begin with the scales dropping from the eyes of the Jews. REMEMBER Yeshua`s words:
Matt 23:37-39
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
NIV
THIS IS THE KEY! And, to fully understand what He was saying, one must understand (a) that He was quoting from Psalm 118:26, and (b) that the phrase in Hebrew means "We welcome the Comer on the authority of YHVH (namely, Yeshua` the Mashiach Elohiym--Jesus the Messiah of God)"!
Ps 118:22-27
22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
23 the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the Lord has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.
25 O Lord, save us; ("Yasha` na!" transliterated into Greek as "Hosanna!")
O Lord, grant us success.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
From the house of the Lord we bless you.
27 The Lord is God,
and he has made his light shine upon us.
With boughs in hand, join in the festal procession
up to the horns of the altar.
NIV
Kinda hard to bless Yeshua` from the "House of the Lord" (the Temple), if there isn't one, right?
I always thought this would be out of a cry of desperation under another holocaust and that it wouldn't be until the Messiah actually returns, like Montana Marv says, but the Messianic Jews--Jews who have come to accept Yeshua` as their Messiah--are already beginning to pray this way! When the Jews of Jerusalem are saying this, particularly the leaders among the Orthodox Jews, the time will be ripe.
Ponder on!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/19/2010 10:20:30 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Roy I still question if there be a future physical temple of God?
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Jesus rebuilt the temple in three days, just as He promised. That temple is Jesus' body, rebuilt as the corporate body of Christ, through His crucifixion, death and resurrection.
The following also suggests that the temple of God is the corporate body of Christ:
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Builded together "through the Spirit" we understand:
1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
So the "temple of God" is the corporate body of Christ, composed of regenerate individuals, through the Holy Ghost.
Following are all of the verses that include the term "temple of God":
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
The above verse is a reference to the literal temple that Jesus prophesied would be torn down - every stone - just as it eventually was.
Matthew 26:61 And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
The corporate body of Christ. Further confirmed by the following:
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So the corporate body of Christ is the temple of God. The above is apparent and not open to interpretation.
In the figurative language of John's vision in Revelation we find the final two verses that use the term "temple of God":
Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
John had this vision while banished on the penal colony on the Isle of Patmos.
Finally, in that same chapter:
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
That's it. The above are all the verses that use the term "temple of God".
This final use of the term locates the temple of God of that verse in the heavenlies, which would be consistent with Ezekiel's account.
Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
We have assurance that God does not dwell in temples made with hands:
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Any future rebuilt temple would be desolate before it was ever built, by God's own design.
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
We can now well understand where we should be on guard for that "man of sin":(spirit of Antichrist)
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
"...above all that is called God...":
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If I am to accept that the "HE" in Dan 9:27 is Christ then I have serious doubts that we will see any single future Antichrist that will set in an earthly temple of God. I do suspect that we have seen several Antichrist setting in the Church of God declaring themselves to be God down through the last 1900 years. So 2Th 2:4 might well be historical.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Revelation question - 3/19/2010 10:57:46 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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Bob,
First this:
quote:
2…I’m suddenly not so sure that we will see a new temple; this has always been somewhat problematic anyway and I suspect that the desolation has already occurred at some point but it might be a TOS violation to discuss it.
Then this:
quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Can you see how thoroughly confused you seem to be getting?
Now just ask yourself, how can the Man of Sin sit in a temple at Jerusalem if there is no "new temple" which will be in existence?
Surely you don't believe that Satan will sit in the Church -- the temple of the Holy Spirit in Heaven -- blaspheming God? Can you see the absurdity?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Revelation question - 3/19/2010 11:56:50 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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No Ezra...I'm not confused. The point is I no longer look for a single Antichrist who will set in a rebuild temple of God but I do think many antichrist have set in the Church of God down through the ages claiming to be god, just as there are many doing so today.
I understand you still expect a single future Antichrist to appear and set in a rebuild temple; I have no problem with that but I think you expect something that will not occur.
This whole discussion goes back to Daniel 9:27 and the premise that the HE is not some future Antichrist but is Christ Himself who confirms the covenant for a week but in the middle of the week is cut off and cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. I understand this is also something that you will not be able to accept but prior to the mid 1800’s was the accepted view.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Revelation question - 3/20/2010 11:38:59 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
I understand this is also something that you will not be able to accept but prior to the mid 1800’s was the accepted view.
We should always remember that (1) the Reformers were focusing their energies on recovering and communicating Gospel truth and they were not focusing on Bible prophecy per se and (2) the Reformers were strongly influenced by the writings of Augustine, some of which were true and others were quite false.
Regardless, you will not be able to rightly interpret Revelation 13 unless you accept the truth that there is indeed a future Antichrist as shown here, and he is not the Pope of bygone years as the Reformers believed. In fact, you will not be able to interpret Revelation 13 at all and may simply dismiss it altogether.
While many prophetic truths were brought to light in the 19th century, they were always there. It is a sad thing to see Christians today trying to go back to old misinterpretations of Bible prophecy.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Revelation question - 3/21/2010 12:19:19 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Ezra..what you think to be the up to date version of prophecy is really the thinking of a 18th century Jesuit priest (Francisco Ribera) commissioned by the Pope to counter what Luther was charging against the Roman Church.
Revelation is very understandable without an Antichrist and a rebuilt temple. It’s just that I understand it a little differently than you do. The truth is that it changes it very little and the outcome it the same either way.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Revelation question - 3/21/2010 1:14:31 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Ezra..what you think to be the up to date version of prophecy is really the thinking of a 18th century Jesuit priest (Francisco Ribera) commissioned by the Pope to counter what Luther was charging against the Roman Church.
This is another one of those false ad hominem arguments meant to create a bogeyman and distract from the facts of the case. If Francisco Ribera presented a futurist interpretation of prophecy, more power to him. That does not mean that Bible students today must sit at his feet in order to interpret Bible prophecy. In fact, most futurist believers have no clue as to what Ribera wrote.
Also there is no way that the book of Revelation can be treated as either preterist or historicist without doing great violence to Bible hermeneutics. Any honest Bible student who has had no exposure to any previous views of prophetic interpretation will conclude that the bulk of the book of Revelation must be in the future (without getting into specifics).
The judgments described therein cannot have happened already since there is absolutely no historical proof for that. And Revelation chapter 13 cannot have already happened for the simple reason that the Gospel is still being proclaimed and Satan has never had full and absolute control of this earth religiously and politically up to this point.
quote:
Revelation is very understandable without an Antichrist and a rebuilt temple. It’s just that I understand it a little differently than you do. The truth is that it changes it very little and the outcome it the same either way.
The outcome is not the same either way. No pope who has ever lived matches the description of the beast in Revelation 13.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Revelation question - 3/21/2010 1:34:25 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Ezra..I don't have time tonight to respond in depth but the beast of Rev 13 is Islam. It's the Leopard-Bear-Lion of Dan 7; it will be Babylon (Iraq), Medo-Persia (Iran) and Syria-Lebanon. Don't take my word for it, take it from Daniel. The bible describes who the beast is.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
(Dan 7:4-6)
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Revelation question - 3/21/2010 12:13:43 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Roy I still question if there be a future physical temple of God?
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Jesus rebuilt the temple in three days, just as He promised. That temple is Jesus' body, rebuilt as the corporate body of Christ, through His crucifixion, death and resurrection.
The following also suggests that the temple of God is the corporate body of Christ:
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Builded together "through the Spirit" we understand:
1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
So the "temple of God" is the corporate body of Christ, composed of regenerate individuals, through the Holy Ghost.
Following are all of the verses that include the term "temple of God":
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
The above verse is a reference to the literal temple that Jesus prophesied would be torn down - every stone - just as it eventually was.
Matthew 26:61 And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
The corporate body of Christ. Further confirmed by the following:
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So the corporate body of Christ is the temple of God. The above is apparent and not open to interpretation.
In the figurative language of John's vision in Revelation we find the final two verses that use the term "temple of God":
Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
John had this vision while banished on the penal colony on the Isle of Patmos.
Finally, in that same chapter:
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
That's it. The above are all the verses that use the term "temple of God".
This final use of the term locates the temple of God of that verse in the heavenlies, which would be consistent with Ezekiel's account.
Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
We have assurance that God does not dwell in temples made with hands:
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Any future rebuilt temple would be desolate before it was ever built, by God's own design.
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
We can now well understand where we should be on guard for that "man of sin":(spirit of Antichrist)
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
"...above all that is called God...":
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If I am to accept that the "HE" in Dan 9:27 is Christ then I have serious doubts that we will see any single future Antichrist that will set in an earthly temple of God. I do suspect that we have seen several Antichrist setting in the Church of God declaring themselves to be God down through the last 1900 years. So 2Th 2:4 might well be historical.
In Messiah,
Bob
Don't read any single verse of Ezekiel 40-48, such as 43:7, without investigating the whole thing! Read through the WHOLE section, preferably in a single sitting and in a version which you can understand well! If you don't come away believing there will be a Temple again, I won't ever believe that you look at Scripture in a literal way again! Consider a few excerpts:
Ezek 40:5-16
5 There was a wall surrounding the house. The man had in his hand a measuring rod six cubits long [ten-and-a-half feet], each cubit [twenty-one inches] being a normal cubit [eighteen inches] plus a handbreadth [three inches]. He measured the wall’s width at ten-and-a-half feet and its height ten-and-a-half feet. 6 He went to the east gate, climbed its steps and measured one of the gate’s doorposts at ten-and-a-half feet wide and the other one the same. 7 There were guardrooms, each ten-and-a-half feet square; the distance between the guardrooms was eight-and-three-quarters feet. The threshold of the gate adjoining the gate’s entranceway facing the house measured ten-and-a-half feet. 8 He measured the gate’s entranceway facing the house at ten-and-a-half feet. 9 Then he measured the gate’s entranceway itself, fourteen feet, and its supports, three-and-a-half feet; the gate’s entranceway was on the side facing the house. 10 There were three guardrooms on each side of the east gate, all the same size; and on each side the supports [between the guardrooms] were also all the same size. 11 He measured the width of the opening to the gateway at seventeen-and-a-half feet and the width of the passage through the gateway at twenty-two-and-three-quarters feet. 12 There was a partition in front of the guardrooms [on one side] twenty-one inches [wide] and a partition on the other side twenty-one inches [wide], with the guardrooms themselves being ten-and-a-half feet square. 13 He measured [inside] the gate from the back wall of one guardroom to the back wall of the other a distance of forty-three-and-three-quarters feet, the openings [to the guardrooms] being opposite each other. 14 He made the posts 105 feet, likewise the posts of the other gates around the courtyard. 15 The distance along the passage from the outer opening of the gateway to the far side of the entranceway at the inner end of the gateway was eighty-seven-and-a-half feet. 16 There were narrow windows to the guardrooms and to their supports facing inward all along the gate; also the vestibules had windows all around facing inward. On each side support were [carvings of] palm trees.
CJB
Ezek 40:44-49
44 Outside the inner gate, in the inner courtyard, were rooms for the singers, one facing south alongside the north gate, and one facing north alongside the east gate. 45 He said to me, “This room facing south is for the cohanim in charge of the house; 46 while the room facing north is for the cohanim in charge of the altar; these are the descendants of Tzadok, who are the descendants of Levi designated to approach Adonai and serve him.”
47 Then he measured the courtyard at 175 feet long and 175 feet wide — it was square. The altar was in front of the house.
48 He brought me to the vestibule of the house and measured at eight-and-three-quarters feet the thickness of the walls on either side of its entrance. On each side, these walls extended five-and-a-quarter feet from the side-walls of the vestibule. 49 The length of the vestibule was thirty-five feet and the width nineteen-and-a-quarter feet; steps led up to it. There were columns on each side of the entrance.
CJB
Ezek 41:13-22
13 He measured the length of the house at 175 feet; then a distance that included [the width of] the separated yard, [the interior width of] the building and [the thickness of] its [front and back exterior] walls, at 175 feet. 14 The distance along the facade of the house on the east through the separated yard[s to the north and south] was 175 feet. 15 He measured the length of the building facing the separated yard behind [the house], together with its galleries on both sides, at 175 feet.
The sanctuary, the inner place and the vestibules [leading from the house] to the courtyard, 16 as well as the thresholds, narrow windows and galleries around these three, had wood panelling around them as far as the thresholds and from the ground up to the windows; and the windows were covered. 17 From the area above the entrance to the interior of the house, as well as outside, and on the entire wall all the way around, both inside and outside, was a pattern 18 consisting of k’ruvim and palm trees, with a palm tree between every two k’ruvim. Every keruv had two faces; 19 so that there was the face of a man toward the palm tree on its one side and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on its other side — this was the pattern all the way around the house. 20 The k’ruvim and palm trees ran from the ground to above the door, and likewise on the wall of the sanctuary. 21 As for the sanctuary, the door-frames were squared, and the appearance of the [Especially] Holy Place was like the appearance [I saw at the K’var River]. 22 The altar was of wood, five-and-a-quarter feet high and three-and-a-half feet long; its length and walls were also of wood. He said to me, “This is the table which is in the presence of Adonai.”
CJB
Ezek 43:1-17
1 After this, he brought me to the gate facing east. 2 There I saw the glory of the God of Isra’el approaching from the east. His voice was like the sound of rushing water, and the earth shone with his glory. 3 The vision seemed like the vision I had seen when I came to destroy the city; also the visions were like the vision I had seen by the K’var River; and I fell on my face. 4 Adonai’s glory entered the house through the gate facing east.
5 Next, a spirit took me up and brought me into the inner courtyard, and I saw Adonai’s glory fill the house. 6 I heard someone speaking to me from the house, and a man was standing by me. 7 He said, “Human being, this is the place for my throne, the place for the soles of my feet, where I will live among the people of Isra’el forever. The house of Isra’el, both they and their kings, will never again defile my holy name by their prostitution, by [burying] the corpses of their kings [on] their high places, 8 or by placing their threshold next to my threshold and their door-frames next to my door-frames, with only a common wall between me and them. Yes, they defiled my holy name by the disgusting practices they committed; which is why I destroyed them in my anger. 9 So now, they should put their prostitution at a distance and the corpses of their kings far away from me; then I will live among them forever.
10 “You, human being, describe this house to the house of Isra’el, so that they will be ashamed of their crimes. And let them measure accurately. 11 If they become ashamed of all they have done, show them the elevation and plan of the house, its exits and entrances, all its details and decorations, and all its specifications, its design and its Torah. Sketch it for them to see, so that they can observe the entire design with its specifications, and carry them out. 12 This is Torah for the house: the whole surrounding area on the mountaintop will be especially holy. This is Torah for the house.”
13 These are the measurements of the altar in cubits (a cubit here is defined as a normal cubit [eighteen inches] plus a handbreadth [three inches]): the base, one cubit [twenty-one inches] deep and one cubit wide; with the molding surrounding it at its rim about a hand-span [nine inches] in width. The height of the altar is thus: 14 from the base on the ground to the lower ledge, three-and-a-half feet, with the width twenty-one inches; from the lower ledge to the upper ledge, seven feet, with the width again twenty-one inches. 15 The hearth measures seven feet [high], with four horns on top of the hearth. 16 The hearth is a square twenty-one feet on each of its four sides. 17 The ledge measures a square twenty-four-and-a-half feet on each of its four sides; the molding around it ten-and-a-half inches [across]; and its base twenty-one inches [larger than the rest, all the way] around. Its steps face east.
CJB
Ezek 44:1-3
44 1 Then he brought me back by way of the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east; and it was shut. 2 Adonai said to me, “This gate will remain shut; it will not be opened, and no one will go through it; because Adonai, the God of Isra’el, has gone through it. Therefore, it is to be kept shut. 3 Only the prince, since he is a prince, is to sit there to eat his meal before Adonai; he is to enter through the vestibule of the gate and leave the same way.”
CJB
Ezek 44:9-16
9 Here is what Adonai Elohim says: ‘No foreigner, uncircumcised in both heart and flesh, is to enter my sanctuary — no foreigner living among the people of Isra’el.
10 “‘Rather, the L’vi’im, who went far away from me when Isra’el went astray, going astray after their idols — they will bear the consequences of their guilt, 11 but they are to serve in my sanctuary. They will have charge of the gates of the house and of serving in the house; they will slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people; and they will attend and serve them. 12 Because they served them in the presence of their idols and became an occasion of sin for the house of Isra’el, I am raising my hand against them,’ says Adonai Elohim, ‘and they will bear the consequences of their guilt. 13 They will not approach me to serve me in the office of cohen or approach any of the holy things or the especially holy things; but they will bear their shame for the disgusting practices they committed. 14 Yet I will put them in charge of the house and all its maintenance and everything to be done in it.
15 “‘However, the cohanim, who are L’vi’im and descendants of Tzadok, who took care of my sanctuary when the people of Isra’el went astray from me — they are the ones who will approach me and serve me; it is they who will attend me and offer me the fat and the blood,’ says Adonai Elohim. 16 ‘They will enter my sanctuary, approach my table to minister to me and perform my service.
CJB
Ezek 46:16-24
16 “Adonai Elohim says this: ‘If the prince turns over part of his hereditary property to one of his sons, it is his inheritance; it will belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance. 17 But if he gives part of his hereditary property to one of his slaves, it will be his until the year of freedom, at which time it will revert to the prince, so that the prince’s heritage will go to his sons. 18 The prince is not to take over any of the people’s inheritance, thereby evicting them wrongfully from their property; he is to give his sons an inheritance out of his own property, so that none of my people will be driven off their property.’”
19 Next, he brought me through the entry at the side of the gate into the holy rooms facing north that were for the cohanim. At their far west end I saw a place 20 about which he said to me, “This is the place where the cohanim will boil the guilt offerings and sin offerings and bake the grain offerings. In this way they won’t have to bring them into the outer courtyard and risk transmitting holiness to the people.” 21 He took me into the outer courtyard and had me pass by the four corners of the courtyard, and there in each corner of the courtyard was another courtyard — 22 in the four corners of the courtyard were enclosed courtyards seventy feet long and fifty-two-and-a-half feet; the four courtyards in the corners were the same size. 23 There was a wall around each of the four, with open stoves all around the bases of the walls. 24 He said to me, “These are the stoves where those serving in the house will boil the people’s sacrifices.”
CJB
Ezek 47:7-12
After being returned, I saw on the bank of the river a great number of trees on the one side and on the other. 8 He said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and continues down to the ‘Aravah. When it enters the sea, the sea of stagnant water, [the Dead Sea,] its water will become fresh. 9 When this happens, swarms of all kinds of living creatures will be able to live in it wherever the streams flow; so that there will be a vast number of fish; for this water is flowing there, so that, wherever the river goes, everything will be restored and able to live. 10 Then fishermen will stand on its shores spreading their nets all the way from ‘Ein-Gedi to ‘Ein-‘Eglayim. There will be as many kinds of fish there as in the Great Sea, [the Mediterranean,] a great variety. 11 However, its mud flats and marshes will not become fresh but will remain salty. 12 On both riverbanks will grow all kinds of trees for food; their leaves will not dry up, nor will their fruit fail. There will be a different kind of fruit each month, because the water flows from the sanctuary, so that this fruit will be edible, and the leaves will have healing properties.”
CJB
Ezek 47:13-23
13 “Adonai Elohim says this: ‘These are the borders of the land you are to distribute for inheritance by the twelve tribes of Isra’el, with Yosef receiving two portions. 14 For inheritance you will each have equal shares. I swore to your ancestors that I would give them this land, and now it falls to you to inherit it.
15 “‘The borders of the land will be as follows: on the north, from the Great Sea through Hetlon to the entrance of Tz’dad, 16 Hamat, Berotah, Sibrayim (which is between the border of Dammesek and the border of Hamat), Hatzer-Hatikhon (which is toward the border of Havran). 17 The border from the sea will be Hatzar-‘Einon (at the border of Dammesek); while on the north, northward, is the border of Hamat. This is the north side.
18 “‘On the east side, measure between Havran and Dammesek, Gil‘ad and the land of Isra’el by the Yarden, from the border to the eastern sea. This is the east side.
19 “‘On the side of the Negev toward the south it will be from Tamar as far as the waters of M’rivot-Kadesh, then to the Vadi [of Egypt] and on to the Great Sea. This is the south side toward the Negev.
20 “‘The west side will be the Great Sea, as far as across from the entrance to Hamat. This is the west side.
21 “‘This is the territory you are to divide among the tribes of Isra’el. 22 You are to divide it by lot as an inheritance both to you and to the foreigners living among you who give birth to children living among you; for you they are to be no different from the native-born among the people of Isra’el — they are to have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Isra’el. 23 You are to give the foreigner an inheritance in the territory of the tribe with whom he is living,’ says Adonai Elohim.
CJB
This Temple as described HAS NEVER BEEN BUILT, YET! So, either Ezekiel is not a prophet of God, God is a liar, or THERE WILL BE A TEMPLE! Pick one! So, mull over the rhetoric you have been musing, but come to the RIGHT conclusion in the end. THERE WILL BE A PHYSICAL TEMPLE, not some "ethereal, 'spiritual,' internal temple."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/21/2010 2:06:59 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Roy a question on Ezekiel’s temple; is this a temple that you think the Jew’s will build in the last 3 ½ years of the week or is this temple constructed by Christ after the week is complete?
This is a description taken from JFB:
The description involves things which, taken literally, almost involve natural impossibilities. The square of the temple, in Eze 42:20, is six times as large as the circuit of the wall enclosing the old temple, and larger than all the earthly Jerusalem. Ezekiel gives three and a half miles and one hundred forty yards to his temple square. The boundaries of the ancient city were about two and a half miles. Again, the city in Ezekiel has an area between three or four thousand square miles, including the holy ground set apart for the prince, priests, and Levites. This is nearly as large as the whole of Judea west of the Jordan. As Zion lay in the center of the ideal city, the one-half of the sacred portion extended to nearly thirty miles south of Jerusalem, that is, covered nearly the whole southern territory, which reached only to the Dead Sea A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
An then there is this statement of the LORD;
And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcasses of their kings in their high places.
(Eze 43:7)
This temple contains the Glory of God, so is this a temple the Jews build or is it a temple that Christ builds in the millennium?
Maybe I haven't made myself clear on this subject, the statement I made centered on a temple built by the Jews in this age. Of Course Christ will build a temple in the millennium.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Revelation question - 3/21/2010 11:02:21 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Roy a question on Ezekiel’s temple; is this a temple that you think the Jew’s will build in the last 3 ½ years of the week or is this temple constructed by Christ after the week is complete?
I thoroughly believe that the Temple revealed to Yechezk'el is the one built by Yeshua` during the Millennium--the first "1000 years" of Yeshua`s eternal, earthly Kingdom, not the one the Jews MAY attempt during the last 3.5 years of the week.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
This is a description taken from JFB:
The description involves things which, taken literally, almost involve natural impossibilities. The square of the temple, in Eze 42:20, is six times as large as the circuit of the wall enclosing the old temple, and larger than all the earthly Jerusalem. Ezekiel gives three and a half miles and one hundred forty yards to his temple square. The boundaries of the ancient city were about two and a half miles. Again, the city in Ezekiel has an area between three or four thousand square miles, including the holy ground set apart for the prince, priests, and Levites. This is nearly as large as the whole of Judea west of the Jordan. As Zion lay in the center of the ideal city, the one-half of the sacred portion extended to nearly thirty miles south of Jerusalem, that is, covered nearly the whole southern territory, which reached only to the Dead Sea A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
And then there is this statement of the LORD;
And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcasses of their kings in their high places.
(Eze 43:7)
This temple contains the Glory of God, so is this a temple the Jews build or is it a temple that Christ builds in the millennium?
Maybe I haven't made myself clear on this subject, the statement I made centered on a temple built by the Jews in this age. Of Course Christ will build a temple in the millennium.
In Messiah,
Bob
No, what you have found is good. As I've already said, the Temple Yechezk'el saw in his vision is the one the Messiah will build. On the other hand, it could be an EXPANSION of that which the Jews may build before His arrival. We still have the following verses which will be fulfilled:
Ps 118:22-27
22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.
25 O LORD, save us;
O LORD, grant us success.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
From the house of the LORD we bless you.
27 The LORD is God,
and he has made his light shine upon us.
With boughs in hand, join in the festal procession
up to the horns of the altar.
NIV
Although there were similarities during Yeshua`s first coming when He arrived in Yerushalayim (for instance, "Hosanna" or "Yasha` na" which is the Hebrew of the first half of verse 25) at the beginning of His last week, these verses were NOT completely fulfilled during His first coming. Therefore, they are yet to be fulfilled during His second coming. Verse 26 in particular must yet be fulfilled. He was definitely NOT "welcomed from the house of the LORD (the Temple)" during his first coming.
If Yeshua` is the one who builds the Temple of Yechezk'el's vision, then the Jews may indeed build a Temple on their own prior to His second coming, since it would be kind of hard to welcome Someone from a "house of the LORD" that has not yet been built!
The thing to remember, however, is just because the Jews build a Temple that is not ordered by the LORD, it doesn't mean that the LORD won't accept their service! They DO have all the furniture and garments prepared already for such Temple worship. So, if circumstances allow, I can see them immediately beginning on the project! They have the best of intentions to worship YHVH as their ancestors had done; so, don't put them or their Temple down because it's not THE Temple of Yechezk'el! It's possible, as I've already said, that Yeshua` will build upon their project. They may start with Yechezk'el's dimensions, for instance.
In any case, it's not just about a "spiritual" Temple. There's a LITERAL, PHYSICAL Temple coming and it will truly be amazing, especially when the glory of the LORD inhabits His House.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/27/2010 6:35:29 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
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If you can receive it, Malachi didn't prophecy the coming of Elijah, the scribes did: "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
The name Elijah comes from combining two words EL and YH to form ELYH, which the scribes read as Elijah, but what Malachi wrote as LORD God. Malachi prophesied the first coming of the Lord before the day of the Lord.
The prophecy of Elijah is the blindness of Israel. When Jesus equated Himself with God, the Jews were outraged because the only coming of the Lord Himself they saw in the OT was for the day of the Lord (Zech 14:1-4). They saw no coming of the Lord, Himself, before the day of the Lord.
The Lord promised to reveal all He would do: "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7), and He did.
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RE: Revelation question - 4/7/2010 1:55:44 PM
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ChrValdes
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/4/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysaviorjesus
Can someone explain the timeline for the end of times? My understanding is something like this:
1. When the number of saints hit God's quota, the rapture will take place. (Imagine if we know who is the last saint to be saved. We can ask that person, hurry up and believe already... let's move it already 
So Christ return in mid air, takes all the already past away saints(saved people that died) from the ground into the air, then takes all the still alive saints living on earth into mid air. and off to heaven we all go.
2. The 7-year tribulation begins. Anti-Christ is known and brings world peace for 3.5 years, rebuilds the temple, then demand everyone to worship him or be killed.
3. At the end of the 7th year, the 7th trumpets sound, Jesus returns with the saints to Israel, takes out Satan and his followers including all the human that wants to fight with Jesus (they must have lost their minds trying to defeat the one true living God)
4. After all bow to Jesus or force to bow with broken knees and flat on their face on the ground, Jesus rule on earth for a 1000 years with the remaining 1/3 of the saved Jewish people. Satan is bound at this point?
??? At this time are there people alive around the world outside of Israel? and if they are, they still have a choice to come and worship Jesus in Israel or reject him?
??? Where are the saints that came with Jesus? Do they go back to heaven and wait, or rule the remaining people on earth with Jesus?
??? When does Satan get released temporarily?
??? After Jesus ruled for 1000 years, the final judgement comes? Opening the book of life? Sending Satan to the lake of fire and the multiple billions of people that refused to believe, to hang out with Satan in the lake of fire forever?
??? God makes the New Earth and New Heaven? God lives with all the saints forever?
Thanks in advance
No.... If you really study the bible, that's not what happens at all... many will be FOOLED by this teaching.... therefore unprepared and possibly lost forever.. just because they listen to others instead of seeking out the truth for themselves...
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RE: Revelation question - 4/7/2010 10:24:19 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 202
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
This event never happened in the 11th century. Where was the 2nd battle of Gog and Magog? Or the first for that matter? Those events never happened. The white throne judgement has never occured as far as I know.
Of course it hasn't. Revelation 20 is looking at Christ's return to establish His millennial kingdom. We haven't gotten there yet because the earth has not yet been through the "Day of the Lord."
Well then the abomination of Matthew 24:15 hasn't happend yet either.
Jesus ties that specific and unique event to the Great Tribulation and immediately after the Great Tribulation comes the sun/moon/star event of Mt 24:29 which heralds the Day of the Lord.
The one 'seven' has yet to begin.
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RE: Revelation question - 4/9/2010 10:32:24 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, ivardboneless.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
If you can receive it, Malachi didn't prophecy the coming of Elijah, the scribes did: "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
The name Elijah comes from combining two words EL and YH to form ELYH, which the scribes read as Elijah, but what Malachi wrote as LORD God. Malachi prophesied the first coming of the Lord before the day of the Lord.
The prophecy of Elijah is the blindness of Israel. When Jesus equated Himself with God, the Jews were outraged because the only coming of the Lord Himself they saw in the OT was for the day of the Lord (Zech 14:1-4). They saw no coming of the Lord, Himself, before the day of the Lord.
The Lord promised to reveal all He would do: "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7), and He did.
Perhaps Malachiy did not prophecy the coming of Eliyahu, but Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) did, and Yeshua certainly said that Elijah was to come first!
Matt 11:11-15
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
Matt 17:11-12
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
KJV
Mark 9:12-13
12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
KJV
Luke 1:13-17
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
KJV
So, the MESSIAH YESHUA` HIMSELF (JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF) said that Eliyahu (Elijah, Elias) was to come first, and HE DID! When Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) came, he came in the "spirit and power of Elias!"
The question is, "Did that settle the need for Eliyahu's coming, OR is there yet another reason for Eliyahu to come in the future?"
The prophecy is actually Isaiah's prophecy:
Isa 35:4-10
4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
KJV
Isa 40:1-5
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
KJV
Isa 62:6-12
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
8 The Lord hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:
9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the Lord; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.
10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.
11 Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the Lord: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.
KJV
I believe this is NOT an allegory of preparing just people's hearts, but that there will be an actual HIGHWAY dedicated to the Messiah. This was the job of the Forerunner, as alluded to by Matthew's, Mark's, Luke's, and John's own words in quoting Isa. 40:1-5:
Matt 3:1-6
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
KJV
Mark 1:1-5
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
KJV
Luke 3:1-6
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
KJV
John 1:19-23
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
KJV
The actual Highway of Holiness has never been built, and this was a responsibility for the Forerunner to oversee. Therefore, to complete the fulfillment of Yesha`yahu's prophecy, Eliyahu must come yet again (or at least, Yochanan or another in the spirit of Eliyahu).
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 4/9/2010 12:10:05 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
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Yes, Isaiah did prophesy the coming of the Lord. So did Micah, but what they did not prophesy was His coming before the day of the Lord. When Jesus proclaimed His divinity, they saw only one coming of the Lord Himself in scripture, which is His coming for the day of the Lord in Zechariah (Zech 14:1-4). They saw no scriptures of the LORD Himself coming before the day of the Lord.
It was Malachi who prophesied the coming of EL YH [LORD God], and, as His disciples learned at the transfiguration, it was the scribes who read it as the coming of ELYH [Elijah]: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
This is the blindness that blinds part of Israel to Jesus, as LORD God, and it would be removed at a specific time, and that time has come: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25).
I don't know why anyone would expect Jesus to remove it before that time, only you know.
As for the rest, you assume that Malachi prophesied ELYH [Elijah] instead of EL YH [LORD God], and you conclude your assumption.
re was only one coming of the Lord Himself in scriptue
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RE: Revelation question - 4/9/2010 5:33:03 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, ivardboneless.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
Yes, Isaiah did prophesy the coming of the Lord. So did Micah, but what they did not prophesy was His coming before the day of the Lord. When Jesus proclaimed His divinity, they saw only one coming of the Lord Himself in scripture, which is His coming for the day of the Lord in Zechariah (Zech 14:1-4). They saw no scriptures of the LORD Himself coming before the day of the Lord.
It was Malachi who prophesied the coming of EL YH [LORD God], and, as His disciples learned at the transfiguration, it was the scribes who read it as the coming of ELYH [Elijah]: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
This is the blindness that blinds part of Israel to Jesus, as LORD God, and it would be removed at a specific time, and that time has come: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25).
I don't know why anyone would expect Jesus to remove it before that time, only you know.
As for the rest, you assume that Malachi prophesied ELYH [Elijah] instead of EL YH [LORD God], and you conclude your assumption.
re was only one coming of the Lord Himself in scriptue
Actually, I don't agree with your take on Malachiy 3:23 for a simple reason: Malakhi uses the words "Elyah ha-naviy," or "Eliyah THE PROPHET!" And, yes, Eliyah was one of the two prophets they saw on the mountain of transfiguration! Every Pesach (Passover) Seder meal has a cup of wine poured for Eliyah in anticipation of his arrival prior to the coming of the Messiah, prior to the coming of the Day of ADONAI.
Furthermore, the rabbis KNEW there were two comings prophesied: They had a group of prophecies for a Mashiach ben Yosef, a Suffering, Dying Messiah (as Yosef suffered in the prison in Egypt), and a group of prophecies for a Mashiach ben Daviyd, a Victorious, Conquering Messiah (as Daviyd the King was victorious). How the two groups of prophecies fit together was a mystery to them. (How could the Mashiach both suffer and die and still be victorious and conquering as a King?) However, they longed for the Mashiach ben Daviyd to come and rescue them from the Roman Empire's oppression and down-played the coming of the Mashiach ben Yosef.
It's not a simple BOOM! God stops working with the Gentiles and starts working with Israel. Like this...
GENTILES GENTILES GENTI|ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES GENTI|ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES GENTI|ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES GENTI|ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES GENTI|ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES GENTI|ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
With just one transition:...|
It's more of a gradual conversion, just as the first transition was gradual...
GENTILES GEN\ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTI\RAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILE\EL ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES \ ISRAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES GE\RAEL ISRAEL
GENTILES GENTILES GENT\EL ISRAEL
And the time it|takes to ... |
get from here:| ... to here:|
This transition period will take as long as (perhaps longer than) it took to go from a nearly completely Jewish congregation of believers to a nearly completely Gentile congregation of believers during the first century.
The first stage was to wake up the Gentile believers to recognize their Jewish roots.
The second stage was to begin waking up the Jews to recognize their Messiah.
My daughter was telling me that, just as hard as it is for some Gentile believers to understand how Pesach or the Passover works, for instance, it's just as hard for Jews to recognize who "Jesus Christ" was! One Jew was saying how that he thought "Jesus Christ" was just for the Catholics! He didn't even know about other denominations among those who call themselves "Christian," let alone who Yeshua` the Messiah really was/is!
You stated, "I don't know why anyone would expect Jesus to remove it before that time, only you know." Well, I don't know if I really KNOW why, but I can guess that it would be because Yeshua` loves His FAMILY, His PEOPLE! He did not divorce His family to welcome the Gentiles! He loves them both, and He welcomes them both into His family! He wants them both, and there's nothing quite so obvious as when Jews and Arabs worship God together in the same congregation in Isra'el. It's phenominal to see the wall of partition truly broken down!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 4/9/2010 11:06:34 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
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Roy,
quote:
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
Look again at Matt 11:13-14. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you receive it this is EL YH [LORD God]. which was for to come. The law and all the prophets through the prophet John, didn't prophesy the coming of John the Baptist.
quote:
Luke 1:13-17
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
KJV
Read it again. He came in the spirit and power of EL YH [LORD God] (vs 17) the spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb (vs 15).
quote:
So, the MESSIAH YESHUA` HIMSELF (JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF) said that Eliyahu (Elijah, Elias) was to come first, and HE DID! When Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) came, he came in the "spirit and power of Elias!"
You're concluding your assumption again. Jesus said that EL YH [LORD God] was to first come and was at hand,
Again, John the Baptist came in the power and spirit of EL YH [LORD God], the Holy Spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb.
Malachi is the only prophecy of EL YH [LORD God], Himself, coming before the day of the Lord. And the other coming of EL YH [LORD God] is the coming for the day of the Lord (Zech 14), blinding Israel to the first coming of LORD God, Himself.
As for the prophecy of John the Baptist, it is irrelevant, for no one has suggested that he wasn't prophesied. What wasn't prophesied, except in the scribe's misreading of Malachi (Matt 17:10).
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RE: Revelation question - 4/10/2010 5:26:19 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, ivardboneless.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
Roy,
quote:
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
Look again at Matt 11:13-14. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you receive it this is EL YH [LORD God]. which was for to come. The law and all the prophets through the prophet John, didn't prophesy the coming of John the Baptist.
Well, that's just not true! Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) sure DID prophesy of John the Baptist! He may not have named him that way, but he sure DID talk of one "crying in the wilderness!" You need to get your facts straight and quit trying to support your theological point (whatever it may be) with the Scriptures! The Scriptures need to come FIRST and one reasons FROM the Scriptures! One does not start with his/her theological point and then reason BACKWARDS to an interpretation of the Scriptures! That's eisegesis instead of exegesis, and it's an error in biblical interpretation!
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
quote:
Luke 1:13-17
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
KJV
Read it again. He came in the spirit and power of EL YH [LORD God] (vs 17) the spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb (vs 15).
No. This is just not right! While it might be alright to say that "Eliyah" in Hebrew actually means "El YAH," one cannot extend that into the Greek language! If one meant to say "Lord God" in the Greek language, then in Greek it would have been "Kurios Theos," not "Eelias!"
I think I understand what you are getting at; you're trying to emphasize that the "spirit and the power" are GOD'S Spirit and Power, not Elijah's, and that's certainly true, but what you must also understand is that a prophet of God, especially those captured in the text of the OT, was a VESSEL for God's Spirit and a CHANNEL for God's Power! When God asked who would go for Him to speak a message, one who would be a prophet for God would tell God, "Hineeniy!" "Here I am!" and God would put His Spirit upon him and put His words in his mouth. Thus, from that point on, one could say "the spirit and power of Eliyah," for instance, and it would not be wrong! Why else do you think Elishah (Elisha) could say to Eliyah, "I want a double portion of your spirit"? He certainly KNEW that it was not actually Eliyah's spirit, but God's Spirit and God's Power that went along with Him! However, Eliyah was the CHANNEL for God's Spirit, and while God used him, it WAS "his spirit!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
quote:
So, the MESSIAH YESHUA` HIMSELF (JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF) said that Eliyahu (Elijah, Elias) was to come first, and HE DID! When Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) came, he came in the "spirit and power of Elias!"
You're concluding your assumption again. Jesus said that EL YH [LORD God] was to first come and was at hand,
Again, John the Baptist came in the power and spirit of EL YH [LORD God], the Holy Spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb.
Malachi is the only prophecy of EL YH [LORD God], Himself, coming before the day of the Lord. And the other coming of EL YH [LORD God] is the coming for the day of the Lord (Zech 14), blinding Israel to the first coming of LORD God, Himself.
As for the prophecy of John the Baptist, it is irrelevant, for no one has suggested that he wasn't prophesied. What wasn't prophesied, except in the scribe's misreading of Malachi (Matt 17:10).
No, you're not seeing the twist. Yeshua` certainly was/is haMashiach, the Messiah, of God! The Day of the LORD began WHENEVER haMashiach came! It would have happened at His first coming if the Jews had not rejected Him as their King! Yeshua`, however, IN THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD, put the Day of ADONAI on hold until the Jews of Jerusalem would WELCOME HIM! ("Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH"; "Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the LORD"; "Welcome, Comer in-Name of-YHVH!" Matt. 23:39)
Furthermore, who says there's a coming of EL YH Himself? Isn't God omnipresent? Isn't God infinite? Isn't God eternal? How could He "come?" He's already HERE!
You don't have to look for a coming of EL YH before the Day of the LORD; simply look for a coming of the Messiah!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 4/10/2010 7:43:07 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
Look again at Matt 11:13-14. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you receive it this is EL YH [LORD God]. which was for to come. The law and all the prophets through the prophet John, didn't prophesy the coming of John the Baptist.
Well, that's just not true! Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) sure DID prophesy of John the Baptist! He may not have named him that way, but he sure DID talk of one "crying in the wilderness!" You need to get your facts straight and quit trying to support your theological point (whatever it may be) with the Scriptures! The Scriptures need to come FIRST and one reasons FROM the Scriptures! One does not start with his/her theological point and then reason BACKWARDS to an interpretation of the Scriptures! That's eisegesis instead of exegesis, and it's an error in biblical interpretation!
It is true. Isaiah is not the law and all the prophets. Read Hebrews which reveals how the law prophesied Jesus, not John. Further, the revelation comes from the Lord, and scripture conforms it. And we are warned of your line-upon-line, precept upon precept eisegesis: <em>But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (Is 28:13)</em>.
quote:
quote:
Read it again. He came in the spirit and power of EL YH [LORD God] (Luke 1: 17) the spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb (Luke 1;15).
No. This is just not right! While it might be alright to say that "Eliyah" in Hebrew actually means "El YAH," one cannot extend that into the Greek language! If one meant to say "Lord God" in the Greek language, then in Greek it would have been "Kurios Theos," not "Eelias!"
It is right. The power and spirit in which John the Baptist operated was the power and spirit of LORD God, the spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb. As for the rest of your
eisegesis, no one was speaking Greek, and the name which is formed by combining LORD [YAH] and God [EL] wasn't translated into Greek or it would have been rendered Theos Kurios. Elias is is a hellenized form of Hebrew EL YH.
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RE: Revelation question - 4/12/2010 2:44:46 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, ivardboneless.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
quote:
quote:
Look again at Matt 11:13-14. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you receive it this is EL YH [LORD God]. which was for to come. The law and all the prophets through the prophet John, didn't prophesy the coming of John the Baptist.
Well, that's just not true! Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) sure DID prophesy of John the Baptist! He may not have named him that way, but he sure DID talk of one "crying in the wilderness!" You need to get your facts straight and quit trying to support your theological point (whatever it may be) with the Scriptures! The Scriptures need to come FIRST and one reasons FROM the Scriptures! One does not start with his/her theological point and then reason BACKWARDS to an interpretation of the Scriptures! That's eisegesis instead of exegesis, and it's an error in biblical interpretation!
It is true. Isaiah is not the law and all the prophets. Read Hebrews which reveals how the law prophesied Jesus, not John. Further, the revelation comes from the Lord, and scripture conforms it. And we are warned of your line-upon-line, precept upon precept eisegesis: <em>But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (Is 28:13)</em>.
Look. I'm going to try one more time to reason with you from the Scriptures, and then if you continue to persist in this ridiculous argument, I'll just say that we agree to disagree and leave it alone.
We don't need the Law AND the Prophets to both foretell the Herald of Yeshua`; one prophet is enough to do the job, and Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) was the main one who prophesied of his coming. The Herald was foretold just as was the Messiah Himself was foretold. BOTH INDIVIDUALS WERE PROPHESIED TO COME! Why is that such a stumbling block for you?
Your point does not follow the arguments of all four Gospels. They EMPHASIZED that Yochanan the Immerser was indeed foretold to come as the Forerunner of the Messiah. The Messiah was/is the King foretold to come, and Yochanan was/is His steward and herald!
READ IT AGAIN!
Isa 40:1-9
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
KJV
Matt 3:1-4
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
KJV
Mark 1:1-9
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
KJV
Luke 3:1-6
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
KJV
John 1:14-27
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
KJV
HOW CAN IT BE ANY CLEARER?!
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
quote:
quote:
Read it again. He came in the spirit and power of EL YH [LORD God] (Luke 1: 17) the spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb (Luke 1;15).
No. This is just not right! While it might be alright to say that "Eliyah" in Hebrew actually means "El YAH," one cannot extend that into the Greek language! If one meant to say "Lord God" in the Greek language, then in Greek it would have been "Kurios Theos," not "Eelias!"
It is right. The power and spirit in which John the Baptist operated was the power and spirit of LORD God, the spirit with which he was filled from his mother's womb. As for the rest of your
eisegesis, no one was speaking Greek, and the name which is formed by combining LORD [YAH] and God [EL] wasn't translated into Greek or it would have been rendered Theos Kurios. Elias is is a hellenized form of Hebrew EL YH.
You're not getting it: If Luke was translating what they said in Aramaic (or Hebrew) into Greek, for Greek-speaking people, then he would have said it for Greek-speaking people to understand! So, if what was said was "El YAH" in Aramaic (or Hebrew), then he would have translated it as "Kurios Theos" (or "Theos Kurios"); he would NOT have left it in a transliterated form as "Elias!"
For instance, when Luke translated Yeshua`s words in Luke 4:8, he did NOT use the words, "YAH El sou proskuneeseis," nor did he use the words "Elias sou proskuneeseis!" He said, "Kurion ton Theon sou proskuneeseis!" (This was translated for us into English as, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God.")
Luke 4:8
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
KJV
SAME THING IN MALACHI!
So, when the Scriptures say,
Mal 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
KJV
which in Hebrew is,
Mal. 3:23-24
23 Hineeh aanokiy sholeeach laakhem eet Eeliyah hanaaviy’ lifneey bow’ yowm YHVH hagaadowl vhanowraa’:
24 Vheeshiyv leev aabowt `al-baaniym vleev baaniy `al-avowtaam pen aabow’ vhikeeytiy et-haa’aarets cheerem:
Masoretic Text
and it didn't mean "Elijah" ("Elias") when it said "Eeliyah," then it would have been TRANSLATED as "God the LORD" ("Theos ho Kurios") and not as "Elias!"
Now, I know you're already confused, but try to understand: You can't have your cake and eat it, too! Either the word should have been translated properly as "Elijah," OR it would have been translated properly by Luke as "Theos ho Kurios" into Greek.
IMO, I believe it was correctly translated as "Elijah."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Revelation question - 4/12/2010 7:40:36 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
Look. I'm going to try one more time to reason with you from the Scriptures, and then if you continue to persist in this ridiculous argument, I'll just say that we agree to disagree and leave it alone.
We don't need the Law AND the Prophets to both foretell the Herald of Yeshua`; one prophet is enough to do the job, and Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) was the main one who prophesied of his coming. The Herald was foretold just as was the Messiah Himself was foretold. BOTH INDIVIDUALS WERE PROPHESIED TO COME! Why is that such a stumbling block for you?
You are not reasoning, in fact, you are not even paying attention. That the law and all the prophets until the prophet John foretold the coming of LORD God [EL YH] is at issue because you cited the verse to refer to John the Baptist, but it refers to LORD God (YH WH): For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is EL YH, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear (Matt 11:13-15). The law and all the prophets prophesied the coming of Jesus, LORD God, not John.
If you would pay attention you would have known the prophesies of John or the Messiah aren't germain to the issue. There was no problem with the coming of a man who would be the Messiah. in fact they asked John if he were the Messiah (John 1:19-20).
The problem arose when Jesus claimed to be God: "But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?" (Mark 14:61-63).
The issue is the two comings of the LORD God, Himself [THE LORD GOD, HIMSELF] in the Old Testament. The Lord had promised to reveal every6thing He would do to the prophets, and He did. However they only saw one coming of the LORD God, Himself [THE LORD GOD, HIMSELF] in the Old Testament and it didn't describe Jesus: Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south (Zech 14:1-4).
The scribes had removed the first coming of the LORD God, Himself [THE LORD GOD, HIMSELF] from the Old Testament, teaching instead the coming of Elijah [ELYH]: Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? (Matt 17:10). God had promised to reveal the first coming of the LORD God, Himself [THE LORD GOD, HIMSELF] (Amos 3:7) and He did. Malachi prophesied the coming of LORD God, Himself before the day of the Lord: Behold, I will send you LORD God [EL YH], the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5).
That is the blindness of Israel.
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